I tend to agree with Jeb. Not trading will be okay with me, most likely.

Sure, Lee's bat would look nice in our order. It's difficult to say whether we should have traded for him, because we don't know Milwaukee's asking price. My first impression (subject to change, of course) is that the Rangers might not have gotten such a bad deal, but that may depend on whether they can re-sign Lee after this season. Cordero has struggled. Mench had an amazing HR streak earlier this year, but has cooled off considerably, at least power-wise. I have no idea how good of prospects the minor-leaguers involved are.

But it seems like every rumored trade involving the Twins involves us giving up prospects much more than big-leaguers. It does make me wonder what the Brewers would have wanted from us. But in the end, I think Jeb is correct that we need a #4 starter much more than another outfielder, especially with Torii coming back soon.

Let's see. That would be like the Twins trading Jesse Crain (set-up man), Jason Tyner (back-up outfielder) and Michael Cuddyer (developing player with some power). Would RD make that deal? Nope. The Brewers, still on the outskirts of the NL wild-card race, clearly wanted more than down-the-road prospects. At this point, let's work on getting another starting pitcher without paying too steep a price.

Is it hard for anyone else to concentrate on work today?

I think a team that's playing .810 baseball right now needs to realize they aren't going to be able to play .810 baseball through September and that Cuddyer in the four spot jsut doesn't work come playoff push.

Liriano and Santana have done enough to get the team this far, now it's Terry Ryan's turn.

Speaking of Liriano, will Liriano or Verlander (or both) be able to stay strong and finish their seasons in Mark "The Bird" Fidrych like fashion?

answer: www.righthandedheat.blogspot.com

I hereby amend all references to "Jeb" to "BG." I should have noticed the reference to BG in the post. :-)

JustHank ... Been around enough teams (at all levels) to know that the concept of team chemistry is nothing to be sneezed at.

Sometimes you just don't.

Hank, at this point, the Twins don't have to play .810 ball through September. As Gardy likes to say (I cant believe I'm quoting this guy), "we just have to concentrate on winning series". A winning pct of a bit over .600 from here on out would probably keep the boys in contention and .650 probably has them playing in October.

Would a legit right handed power hitter in the cleanup spot protecting Mauer and being protected by Morneau be an improvement? Oh yeah, no doubt.

But giving up the talent that such a player seems to be commanding in this year's market (especially a 2 month rental player that you lose after the year) doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. Now if the price were a couple of decent farmhands (no, not Garza... probably not Slowey), I'd be more on the fence perhaps.

One player makes sense to me.

Jayson Stark said this morning that the Twins had pokers in the fire for both Lee and Soriano, so they may be willing to spend a little.

We don't need a 4th or 5th spot hitter - we need a guy with some power to support Mauer / Cuddles / Morneau.

We could use a guy who can catch, allowing Mauer to DH more often and allowing Redmond to play more.

We could use a guy who can play all the corners - 1st, 3rd, left, right. We have a dozen middle guys and someone on the outside is always either hurt or slumping a bit.

We need a guy from a bad team that is big enough market-wise to pick up salary and not ask for much in return.

The player in question isn't playing well right now and needs a change. That might help the return value some.

Yes. Phil Nevin, Chicago Cubs. Big bat, big presence. His on-base is 83 points higher than his batting average, he has 18 homers and 53 RBI for a terrible team that acquired him in a panic.
On top of all that, he has 109 career games at catcher and can play four field positions and DH.

He's the perfect player if the price is right.

I agree with JC--just keep winning series and we play in October.

Twins are built on pitching and defense--yes Cuddles is weak as cleanup hitter--but his arm in RF is as good as anybody's and he comes thru often enough with big hits.

Trading Garza or somebody as part of renting a slugger for two months is not worth it in my opinion. Let others collect rent-a-players like Carlos and Soriano who cant play defense.

DAM

All I'm saying is that the Twins have used this "stick with what got us there" formula too many times. It's boring me out of my mind and I don't know how putting Soriano in left field is going to kill the chemistry of the team. If anything, he'll be able to speak a little spanish with the Latino Heat duo. Seriously, I lineup that goes:

Castillo
Soriano
Mauer
Cuddyer
Morneau
Hunter

looks pretty good to me. I know, based on our current ownership, making a move for Soriano is highly improbable, but can't a guy be allowed to dream about winning a World Series? A wild card race against five other teams is just not enough for me to say I'm okay with Bartlett, Tyner and Punto in my lineup.

First, Hank, Soriano would only displace Tyner in the lineup. Bartlett and Punto would remain as starters, and I'm just fine with that.

Soriano would be fine to have, but is it really worth giving up Garza, if that's what it would take? It's possible (MAYBE) that Garza could help us this year. But next year, we're really going to need him with Bradke gone.

But your not gonna get him for nothing. And who it's who you'd have to give up that would be messing with the chemistry of the team.

Unless it's a straight up deal for Lohse. :-)

What?

I would guess that like Liriano last year, Garza is Untouchable. Perhaps the one player in the minors who is.

Hank, I'd probably be tempted to throw Soriano in as the cleanup hitter and leave Punto right where he's at.

It's great to dream and I'm not at all opposed to making a reasonable offer. But from all reports, the Nats are laughing at 'reasonable' offers and demanding the moon and all your future superstars.

Liriano was too high a price to pay the Rangers last year and Garza is too high this year. Ive said before and I'll say again, Garza will be the #4 starter here yet this year. With a rotation of Santana, Radke (if he stays healthy), Liriano, Garza and Silva/Baker/whothehellcares, the Twins will be killers in September, even with the current everyday lineup.

I've been hearing a lot of national media saying we can't keep up this pace. Of course we can't. But as Jim pointed out, .600 (a considerable cooling off) is going to get us to 96 wins, and every team that's won 96 since they started the Wild Card has made it. With the team winning 90% of the games started by Liriano and Santana, we'd only need one win from the other three guys each time through the rotation. Very doable.

The best guy I could think to trade for would be Cabrera from the Marlins. He's one of the best all-around young players in the league, and he's not eligible for free agency until 2009, so we wouldn't have to worry about losing him after 2 months. By 2009, Matt Moses will probably be ready to come up in his place. Put Cabrera in the cleanup spot, and I don't think we'll see any more intentional walks of Mauer.

We could put together a pretty decent package of Lohse, Lew, Tiffee, and one of the Rochester pitchers other than Garza. With Cabrera at third, we could move Punto over to second, and potentially send Castillo to a contender, and have them give the Marlins somebody off their 25-man roster. It's best for Castillo's knees long-term to get him off the Dome turf anyway.

That's my dream trade. With Radke retiring, we don't give up Garza, period. And if we can't be sure the guy we're getting will be around next year, I don't think it's worth it.

To Batgirl, please take this as the lightest and well meaning of reproachments, but the name confusion in you original post might be one strike against referring to yourself in the third person. Just a gentle bit of teasing.

I completely agree with your original post though. Unless the Twins could pick up a 4 or 5 starter without giving much of anything away I think they should stand pat. If Garza is anywhere near as good as reported we'll be having a nickname contest next year for the three headed monster that is Santana/Garza/Liriano.

And then the guy that's giving grief to Batgirl about using the third person leaves the "r" off "your" AND uses a sentence fragment.

Sheesh.

I agree TR will not give up Garza, and I don't think we should. I think he (Garza) can make a difference this year. And will defiantly make a big one next year. Soriano would be cool, but not worth Garza (or our whole farm system as they may be demanding :-). If I hade to chose between having a shot at the world series, this year, or having a shot at the next 5 world series, I know which one I would chose. And I think we have a shout at it without getting a big name.
*Wipes brow, stops ranting*

Dear Mr. Chuckles,

Batgirl is perplexed. How else would she refer to herself?

Bumfuzzled,
Batgirl

neckrolls, i've been saying that same thing about a Cabrera trade since the start of the season. i've been saying it in here and at www.aarongleeman.com.
but it's going to take a lot more than 3 scrubs and 1 AAA guy to get him. he's a 3-time All-Star and he's 23 (1 day older than Mauer, actually). it'd probably take Perkins, Slowey, and Moses to pull that off.
personally, i would do that. i'd LOVE to have Cabrera.

TeeNutts, I'm not sure how many guys it would take. I think Lohse could actually be OK in a pitcher's park in the NL, Lew has always been a National League style player, and Tiffee could have a lot of value in the NL as a PH, even if he didn't work out as an everyday third baseman. That's what I'd tell their GM, anyway.

Glad I'm not married to/dating you guys. I still think ya dance with the guy what brung ya. If this rag-tag bunch can pull off a .810 streak, they have the ability to go .600 in the playoffs and that works for me. I don't see a major weakness that we need to plug. Who's going tonight? I'll be there in batgirl attire - Sec 123.

OK, this it not on topic, and I already posted it somewhere about midnight -- but have you seen the EIGHTEEN pictures of Johan and the story on the Strib on-line? Am I the only one swoonin' here, or what? How can any one man be so, well, so Johanesque?

I don't know why the Marlins would part with Cabrera. More likely, they see him as the cornerstone of their own rebuilding program.

I also wouldn't so anything so drastic as ship out Castillo at this point. Does nobody remember this organization's 2nd base futility for the past god-knows-how-many years? Castillo isn't as young as he used to be and his gold glove days may be over, but since he and the tiny super hero have moved in to the 1-2 spots, there have been no shortage of men on base when the heart of the order comes up (and their RBIs resulting from the 8-9 spots getting on base lately can't be overlooked either). I'm really not THIS conservative, by nature, but I stand by my past statements that IF Hunter comes back healthy, that's as good as almost any deadline trade pick up that's available and TR doesn't have to give up anyone to get him. I'll take my chances with this group as it is (plus Garza when they finally realize they have to get his right-handed-96mph-throwin arm up here where it can do us some good.

JC

The reason the Twins won't/shouldn't go after Soriano is simple - they won't be able to sign him for 2007. Giving Garza away for a shot at the playoffs may sound appealing, but it won't be when we've lost Radke and ditched Lohse next season; then what? The "dance with who brung ya" approach, while it may be boring to you, JustHank, is what has kept the Twins consistently competitive for the last six years; there's no way they're going to veer from that path now. Nor should they, if you ask me. We made it to the ALCS with worse starting pitching and less power than we have right now in 2006 (though I don't have stats to back that up - feel free to correct me, y'all), so why not believe that we can go further this year? And while Mr. Cuddyer may not be the prototypical cleanup hitter, I'd say the guy who bats behind him seems more than capable of picking up the slack.

Youre right about Morneau, adidasman. If he continues to hit well against left handed pitching (and if Mauer continues to draw IBBs), it wouldn't surprise me if Gardy bit the bullet and let his two left handed hitters hit back to back at 3-4. That said, when you've been winning 80+% of your games, it's kind of hard to convince yourself to tweak things too much. If I'm managing this team, I just sit back and try to resist the temptation to feel like I have to "earn my paycheck" and risk screwing things up in the process. He'll have enough of a challenge trying to figure out where to plant Hunter's butt in that line-up. (I would say 7 or 8).

I think the Twins stand a pretty good chance of making the playoffs even if TR stands pat, but I also believe you can always use all the help you can get once you're in the postseason.

Does the team have to play .810 ball through September? No, of course not. But I think Hank's point is, the GM shouldn't expect that his perfectly overperforming machine in June/July should still be looking so perfectly grand in October, if only he doesn't mess with its 'chemistry.' There is always room for improvement. Often that point is made glaringly obvious in the bright lights of October.

I probably wouldn't trade Garza, but it may not be necessary to give up your best pitching prospect to upgrade the team in some important way. The Rangers just got Carlos Lee for a packet of 3 pretty ordinary players.

Cant argue too much with what youve said, frightwig, because of course you can always find a way to improve your team somewhere.

But let me pose something to you. Take a look at RD's question at the very top of this thread. It's not a perfect comparison, because the Twins don't really have a 'failed closer' like the Rangers gave up, but would you have given up 3 of the current Twins' "pretty ordinary players" (Crain, Tyner, Cuddyer)? If that's not a fair comparison, what three would have been acceptable?

I just don't see the logic in a major disruption in the lineup right now. If there's a missing piece out there that you can pick up, great. But not at the price that the Nationals, for example, seem to be demanding.

It ain't broke.

Darlings,

Propose a trade for Batgirl. Trade a few players for one of the names out there. If it is Mr. Soriano, please remember that Mr. Bowden is asking for a great deal.

Curiously,
Batgirl

I agree with Spike - I like what's going on too much right now and with this group of guys to want to do anything to the everyday roster. Yes, I know they'll put Torii in the minute he comes off the DL, and I can accept that. Still, I don't see the point of us running out to make these big trades when we obviously have a good thing going and prospects that we would like to keep our mitts on, thankyouverymuch.

But maybe I'm just a sentimentalist.

I'll be there, too, cheering on our boys from 118. This is going to be such an exciting game.

JC is a man I can agree with. Maybe it's the dual Hawkeye/Twins fandom that does it. The only deal worth making at this point brings us a 4th starter. I'm not sold on Baker for the long-term yet, either. Guerrier someday making the move back to starter seems more likely to me. I say if the Twins can get a quality 4th to help pitch them past the Yanks, Baker could be dealt. The problem is that I don't know who that guy would even be. Maybe it's just Garza as the 4th & "Who the hell cares?" at 5th.

Tyner/Hunter/Cuddyer in the OF works for me. With Punto playing well at 3rd and Bartlett claiming 'SS of the future' mantle, I'm happy with the IF, too. I thought about Castillo as movable, but the bottom line is that he's getting it done right now. I want him there in the playoffs.

The Carlos Lee doesn't scare me, either. Lee's a great hitter, but now he's playing in the Major Leagues again. The thing that scares me is the Yankees getting Zito. Because make no mistake, the Yankees are now our prime competition for the WC. I call BS on the White Sox; they'll finish 3rd this year & 4th next year. Nice run last year. That's all ya get.

BG, I would have to seriously consider a trade for Soriano that involved almost any 3 of the following:

Any minor league pitcher but Garza and Slowey

Any minor league position player but Span and Moses

I'd also be willing to give up one or two of the following current major leaguers: Lohse, Eyre, Tyner, Tiffee, White, Rodriguez, and EITHER Guerrier or Crain, but not both.

As for a 4th pitcher, I know I've lobbied ad nauseum for Garza to be brought up but if we're going to rent someone for 2 months, I think Maddux would be interesting as a possible addition to the rotation for a couple of months(scary memories of Steve Carleton at the end of his career, notwithstanding). I just have a suspicion that with the Twins' defense behind him, he'd have a few good starts left in him.

OK, lay down the challenge, BG. Here are my thoughts:

The best idea so far is the Nevin idea. If we could package White/Lohse, etc. for him, that would be a nice upgrade on Rondell. My initial reaction, as a San Diego resident, was to remember how he sucked for the Pads the last few years. But he has been better, and the Cubs should definitely be selling.

The biggest problem is that there are like, what, 4-6 teams in sale mode? Cubs, Brewers, Orioles, Phillies, maybe the Pirates & D-Rays? The Dodgers should be, because they're horrible.

Give me Derek Lowe for White, Lohse, and a prospect (or Baker?), or make it Brad Penny and Silva and Baker are definitely on the table. How about something similar for Rodrigo Lopez? I really don't read much about other teams & I can't stand listening to ESPN talking heads so I don't know the 'buzz.' I like the Lowe idea a lot, except for I bet salary would be an issue.

Maddux in a good thought. I think he's more likely to come here (Padres), though. Been rumoured since I've lived here. I'd love to see that, actually. Twins/Pads is my dream, naturally. If Peavy gets it together, Peavy/Chris Young could deliver it, too. And Adrian Gonzales at 1B is the NL version of the Doctor.

Wow! I agree with JimCrikket 100%! I was not keen on Soriano for some of his attitude history, but lately the idea has grown on me. I personally think that the addition of a caliber hitter and one more decent starter would not just put us on the map--they'd make us nearly invincible. More protection for Mauer and Morneau makes the whole lineup better.

As for pitchers, I don't know about Maddux. I would rather have Garza than Maddux. I wouldn't mind Livan Hernandez or Jake Westbrook. Both of these guys have a pretty decent history and would definitely shore up the 4th or 5th spots.

"trade for Batgirl"

NEVER!

You're on my all-time 25-man roster, BG.

*rimshot!*

How does Lew Ford to Washington for starter Tony Armas Jr. sound, emotional attachments aside?

Im too lazy to look up the stats, but I dont think I'd give much for Hernandez... I just don't see that he has anything left in the tank. I may be wrong, but I was guessing that Maddux could be had cheaper than Westbrook and, if what the Nats are asking for Soriano is any indication, certainly cheaper than Hernandez. And don't forget, you don't have to choose Maddux OR Garza... there's no reason why you couldn't have them both in the rotation in September. Santana, Radke, Liriano, Maddux, Garza.... try that on for size.

I love Lew as much as the next person, but Jason Tyner has contributed much more in his limited play than Lew in his. Not to bring up old wounds, but sometimes you have to let your fan faves go (Koskie). Stew will be a guy I miss, but he's not healthy enough to be there when we need him.

RD, I just think that any trade with the Nationals would require more than fair value. Armas would be an interesting addition and Ford is probably odd man out (pun intended) of the outfield situation when he comes back. His injury also makes it unlikely anyone would trade for him until after the deadline.

I could like that rotation. My only question is what we would give up taking a flyer on Maddux. Hernandez looks kinda rough right now, but he is still way younger than Maddux. Of course, if the Cubs were willing to take a flyer on Lohser, than I'm willing to take a flyer on Maddux. ;0)

First of all, Maddux would never accept a trade to the Twins, nor should the Twins want him. He's a 40 year old pitcher that can't get people out from those weak National League lineups. He'd get killed in the American League, and he knows it. That's why all the teams on his acceptable trade list are in the NL. I'd be awful wary of any 4th or 5th starters in the NL right now. If they're not good enough to better than a 4th or 5th man in the NL, are they going to be able to cut it in the AL?

I agree with the comments above that don't think its worth it to trade prospects for a 2 month rental. Soriano would be nice, but the Twins have no shot to keep him. Some people may talk about the money scheduled to come off the books next year, but unlike some people over on the Twins MLB board, I think the Twins need to use the cash to buyout Mauer's and Morneau's arbitration years. Plus, Nathan will be a FA after next year if I remember correctly, and 2008 isn't that far away-meaning the Twins should think about Johan's next contract now.

Miguel Cabrera would nice since the Twins could keep him around. He has played some OF, not sure if it was LF, but he could also play 3rd if LNP tails off.

I agree with you, Chuckles, from a sheer ability point of view. However, Maddux has been around a long time and has experience that would definitely bring an upgrade over Baker at this point. I don't think the Twins would go for him, and if they did they'd be taking a gamble on his experience. I certainly would trade Lohse for him, though. That would be about it because Maddux definitely wouldn't help past this season.

It kills me to say it, hrbekfan, but I'm with you on Lew. Obviously, given my username around these parts, I lurve Lew. I just don't know how productive he can be for us any longer. Maybe he'll pull a White and blast back from his DL stint? In reality, however, Tyner's my Rookie Boyfriend and I would like to see him stay up in the bigs.

*sigh* Either way, it's a tough call for me.

I do *not* want Miguel on our team. I take pride in cheering for a team that is for the most part unselfish and full of good guys. The ones that show up with a bad attitude don't stick around long. My buddy posed the Cabrera thing to me a couple weeks ago. I told him the same thing--I don't want that punk on our team. The next day it was in the news that he had a confrontation with one of the veterans on the squad--not just a difference of opinion either. I say attitudes like that belong on teams like NY and Chi--I never underestimate the role of chemistry.

We shouldn't take any starting pitchers from the NL - you can count on their ERAs going up by at least a half run when they get to the AL. The reason the Yankees are as vulnerable as they are right now is that they've invested so heavily in successful NL pitchers. Seriously, with Liriano and Santana, our 4 & 5 starters only need to be good half the time and we'll make the playoffs. I still think Silva and Baker can probably handle that, and Garza almost certainly can. So I wouldn't trade for a starter.

I don't know if I would have given up Crain/Tyner/Cuddyer for Carlos Lee, but I might have done Lohse/Ford/Cuddyer. That's pretty similar to what Texas gave up, no? I like Cuddyer a lot, and he's starting to come into his own, but we do have a ton of good outfielders.

Just get rid of Lohse, for pity's sake. Somebody out there wants him, right? Right? Hello?

It's amazing the love affair that Twins fans have had with Lewwwwwwww--myself included. I've been to the games where we yelled it at the top of our lungs. Yes, this goofy guy rumored to have ironed his shirt while wearing it, will be missed when he is no longer with us.

Let's all sigh.

I'm on the "get a 4th starter" bandwagon. Garza is THE hot prospect for 2007, but I stand by my preseason concern with having 2 rookies in the starting ro'. At the time, I said that it was possible that either Liriano or Baker could end up as solid starters, but we could not count on BOTH of them being better than average MLB 4/5 starters. To expect both of the to be better than average 4/5 guys was a pipe dream.

So far, I'd say young Mr. Liriano has been acceptable ;-)

Anyway, the names may have changed (Garza for Baker), but the concern still remains. I am not willing to count on Garza to be consistently better than an average MLB 4th starter (This year. TR, if you trade him now I'm coming over there with a bat!) -- especially if The Jackal spirals and Nutty's carrying case ends up as the 5th starter. It's not that I'm down on Baker for the long term, I just don't want to end up counting on 3 rookies to bring you into October.

The name I'd like to consider is Livan Hernandez. He's only 31. Career ERA of 4.21, slightly better than .500 record. Having a below standard year for him, so his value may be slightly deflated, and he is very likely to be better in a playoff run environment. He's playoff tested. In other words, could he be at least an average #4 guy? Absolutely. Signed through 2007 for $7M. I'd say quite an upgrade from Rick Reed.

Who to give up? Kyle Lohse? He only has value to a contending team, you would think. You'd love it if all the 'Nats wanted was someone we don't, like Durbin, Boof, or Tiffee. (Why does Terry Tiffee keep showing up in fans' trade proposals? Why would another team want a 27 year old player who is behind L-Rod on the Twins' depth chart? He's Scott Stahoviak w/o the dazzling stats. No one will take him off our hands just to be nice)

You'd need to consider someone that may actually hurt a little to lose. Perkins comes to mind. Maybe Perkins and Crain? I don't know. All I know is that I want a legit #4 starter. Then I'm willing to take a risk with #5.

E-9

I really don't like the idea of including Cuddyer in any deal for what seems to be available out there right now. There's already a lack of hitters with decent power in the organization at all levels so trading away one that you do have would not seem prudent. He may not be ideal as a cleanup hitter but as a 5-6 hitter, he's a great fit... and let's not discount that arm in RF. Who do the Twins have with anything close to that cannon? Further, trading him for a rental power hitter leaves you with exactly who next year? By 2007 you won't have the rental OR Cuddyer.

If Miguel's attitude is of concern, then Soriano shouldn't be a Twin either with the hissy fit he had this year about playing in LF.

I've said for months that I'd trade Lohser for a roll of wet toilet paper. Problem is, with that asking price there's not too many takers! I'd better watch out--the one Lohse fan out there will take out their wrath on me.

Hrbekfan,
Miguel Cabrera IS a veteran on his team, but that being said, I don't think the Twins should trade for anyone if it means giving up one of their top pitching prospects. They need to think about the future esp the starting rotation with Radke retiring next year.

Shaun, I agree with you about Soriano--to a degree. That is exactly why I hesitated at first. However, while Soriano has had some attitude issues, they have not affected his clubhouse. From what I have seen, everyone likes him. Meanwhile, other than his massive talent, I have heard nothing positive about Cabrera.

Yes, Cabrera is a veteran. He's been around three years or so and is about 24 years old. If Liriano or Joe Mauer started shoving there fingers at Torii or Redmond I would be very unhappy with them. Cabrera is a talent who boasts on himself and looks down at other players and argues with the real leaders on his team. If not being a rookie qualifies you as a veteran, yes, he qualifies. But that gives him no right to show up the guys who have been around for 10 and 15 years.

In his organization he is considered a veteran. There are a lot of young rookie players on the Marlins this year, and Cabrera and Willis are the only two players that have been around since their world series in 03. If that doesn't qualify him as a veteran on the Marlins, then I don't know who would be more of a veteran on that team. But I agree that his attitude does suck and I wouldn't want the Twins to lose someone like Garza for Cabrera. Esp if they are already doing well offensively without the "big bat" of a Soriano or a Cabrera.

High maintenance folk do not last with the Twins. Neither do they belong here. To give away any of our pitching prospects for Cabrera or Soriano feels wrong.

Off the topic, but a friend and I were wondering...have there been any brawls this year? I mean REAL BRAWLS--benches clearing, players swarming like a mass of angry hornets, mayhem for a good fifteen minutes, multiple ejections, etc. Just curious.

I've seen two brawls this year. Not with the Twins though. There was the ever so famous Pierzynski/Barrett brawl at home plate. Another good fight I saw was when Jason Kendall charge John Lackey. I love seeing fights like these. Maybe one of the biggest reasons I love hockey so much.

Carmen, I dont recall any real brawls tho the little incident with AJ and the Cubs might count. I seem to recall that MLB implemented some stricter penalties for players participating in them which probably has made them less predominant.

Curiouser and curiouser! ... I just heard Orel Hershiser contradict what he said last night and now he thinks the Twins will win the wildcard.

Last week it was, "The Twins are playing well, but they won't keep up with the White Sox."
This week it's, "Ok so they're in a race with the Sox, but they'll never catch up to the Tigers."
After this series I can't wait to hear what they say after we take at least 2 of three from the kitties.

That's hilarious, jamar. It was just this morning I think I heard him say (on Mike & Mike maybe?) that he still felt the White Sox pitching would recover and they would win the wild card. Maybe the Bulldog is learning the old trick of going on record saying every team will win, that way you can always say you were right. Too funny.

I confess, I love brawls. It's awful. I feel kind of dirty saying that, like I'm confessing that I think Paris Hilton is a role model or something. Brawls are so uncivilized, so unsportsmanlike, so ridiculous.

Maybe that's why I like them--pandemonium, drama, and no one EVER gets seriously hurt! Bill Simmons wrote an excellent piece about basebrawls a few years back, and I kept it because it was so great.

And by he way, I don't think the Pierzynski/Barrett altercation counts as a brawl--A.J. sassed Barrett, took a haymaker to the jaw, and then fell down in the dirt like Stillwell after Jimmy Dugan hit him in the face with the glove. Incidentally, if there were to be a brawl between the Twins and the Bitch Sox, I bet A.J. would start it and LNP would finish it. LNP may be tiny, but dynamite comes in small packages, and he is NOT a little nancy boy.

And I agree, Grace. Naysayers, get thee to the Metrodome and be converted!

So, how about some predictions for this weekend--apart from the trading aspect. Before this week started I was more afraid of the Chicago series than Detroit. We still needed to show we can win away from home and we also had Silva going. I still feel the same. Many folks I have talked to say they are nervous going into this series. I fully believe we will take 2/3, and if we swept the Tigers I wouldn't be surprised. Remember, we have lost 11 games at the Dome this year. In May when we were playing bad and Detroit was hot, we took 2/3 from them in the Dome. Now, we face the bottom of their rotation with our top three guys. I'm so excited for tonight I can hardly stand it!

I know, hrbekfan...I can't sit still, too keyed up. I have dinner plans that I wish I could canccel, just to listen to the game. But I;ll be there on Sunday, that is one hot matchup: Bonderman vs. El Presidente.

My prediction?

Get the broom.

Im a cynic. Ive been told more than once that Im a "glass half empty" person. I like to think Im more of a realist than a pessimist but I readily admit that I'm not one of those "always looking on the bright side of life" guys.

Which makes me very uncomfortable right now, because I look at the pitching matchup this weekend (and, btw, it's quite possible it will be the same pitching matchups in a couple weeks when the Twins face the Tiggers again) and the fact that the series is at the Dome and I find myself thinking "this is a sweep waiting to happen".

Happy with a series win? yeah. But I like the chances of taking all three.

I've always kinda liked the thought of Nevin in the AL - he's a servicable field player without a position, came up as a catcher, and has undeniable power. His San Diego days were mostly tarnished by having the exact same player already on the roster (Klesko) and never really finding a place to play.

I think he'd be great down the stretch for an AL team - a veteran who can hit every day, play wherever the manager needs him, then be that bat off the bench you need in October.

I don't like the idea of Soriano - he's too defensively shaky for the Twins, and the thought of him trying to track balls in the teflon (or even just functioning on turf) is rather frightening. The Marlins would want names for Cabrera and have made it fairly clear that he will be the lynchpin of the Marlins' pennant run / subsequent implosion of 2009.

Livan would be a good fit - throws a heavy ball, eats up a ton of innings. Not sure how much Trader Jim is trying to extort for him.

Bottom line - the Cubs were desperate enough to go get Nevin in the first place when Lee went down, and they won't expect big prospect returns for a 35 year old utility power hitter at this point.

If they don't go Nevin, I'd be semi-happy with filler like Burnitz or Matt Stairs that would come fairly cheap.

Trading for a fourth or fifth starter sounds crazy to me. Garza is more likely to push us over than anyone outside the organization. I really don't think we need more pitching right now, especially with Neshek doing so well out of the pen.

In fact we probably have excess pitching in the organization, but I almost think we'd be better off waiting till the offseason, when we can get a lot better return. I'd love to pick up Soriano (to DH?), but we'd have to trade at least the equivalent of both Boof and Baker, and probably one or two other pitching prospects from our 40 man roster. I just can't imagine the price is going to be worth the cost... unless we move to keep him out of Detroit, and even then I'm not sure.

I can't believe Nevin would be better than just playing Redmond more often. If you're concerned about Joe, I think we should just play redmond more often.

That's exactly the point - with a capable third catcher on the roster Gardy can start Redmond and Mauer in the lineup without having to worry about the DH rule (if your only backup catcher is DHing and has to catch in an emergency you lose the DH). That's why you almost never see Redmond and Mauer in the lineup together. Nevin (or any other catcher, actually) serves a purpose just being available on the bench in those circumstances. Nevin just happens to be the most versatile option available there, unless you want to mention Matty Go Boom...

(... not to mention the long-term knee benefits of being able to DH Mauer once or twice a week, and getting Redmond at-bats may add another solid bat without even having to use random third catcher person.)

Livan for Lohse. Maybe with a low-A prospect thrown in.

Washington could look at Kyle and say: He's young. We play in a huge ballpark, so the gopher ball is less of a concern. We need pitching that can last a long time.

Livan is a 33/33/33 guy. One-third of the time, he's unhittable. Another third, he's serviceable - scrappy, finds a way to only give up four runs despite having nothing, and eats innings. And one-third of the time, well ... we've got a great bullpen, don't we?

And he's been there in October before. Build a rotation around him? Nope. But convince the Nats that Kyle is a five-year No. 2 or No. 3 starter for them if he can only get a 'fresh start' away from Gardy and Rick Anderson - and all they have to give up is a guy they'll lose at the end of the year anyway?

bye-bye, Mr. Peanut, I say. And the Nats might take it. Reaction in D.C. today to the Lee deal was very weird: "Trade Soriano NOW! Lower the asking price! Because deals are starting to happen!!!"

I agree with you Bob. Especially with the market for pitchers being so thin right now, the Twins would have to drastically overpay for a 4 or 5 guy. I think we can get to the playoffs with whet we have, trim it down to 4 starters (Santana/Liriano/Radke/Silva or Garza) and be set. While I would like to see TR pick up a big bat, I don't think they'll be willing to give up as much as the Bitch Sox or the Jankees to get Soriano or Cabrera. I'm pretty happy with where we are, as long as Rondell doesn't revert to his first half ways and all our young guys can keep it up (which is a major concern of mine).

I HATE living in NYC. Never get to see my Twins play:(

Whoa - people. There was a HUGE brawl between Cotts and a Gatoade bucket just the other night! As you recall, Cotts gave it everything he had, but that bucket wan't havin' any and just kept coming back for more...

TD-I think I understand what you're saying. But I've always thought Gardy should just play both catchers. If don't, you're playing as if you expect one to get hurt. And the risk of losing a DH is about as bad as losing Joe for three ABs.

We don't really need much else now, starting pitching is it. Maybe a big hitter but starting pitchers.

weeping. weeping. ugly game. down with the tigers.

I don't get why people would want to trade for Soriano. the only place we could use him is in the outfield, and if anyone remembers, he threw a fit when the Nats put him in the outfield. he doesn't want to be in the outfield, and he's going to pitch a fit with whichever team he ends up if he's put in the outfield. we don't need him on second, and he's not very good there, anyway.

DH, then? perhaps. but that's a big adjustment for guys who are used to playing a position, and I bet he'd throw a fit if he had to be a DH, too.

guys who throw fits annoy the hell out of me, and I don't want them on my team. plus, he costs more than he's worth.

my vote: NO Soriano.

My vote is also NO on Soriano. I don't see how it's even a possibility-given the market for him, there's no way we can get him without giving up too much.

Great game tonight, even with the loss. It was a playoff preview-if you didn't feel that, you weren't paying attention.

I'm a Tigers fan, and I hope I'm not intruding, but I wanted to say two things:

1. This is a terrific site.

2. It was a great game tonight. I love good baseball, played hard between two good teams. Naturally, I'm glad my favorite team won (is that wrong?), but man! What a good game!

I've been looking forward to this weekend series, and the first game didn't disappoint. I'm betting the next two will be good games too, regardless of how they turn out. Anyway, I mainly just wanted to compliment Batgirl and the cast on a great site, and I hope "foreigners" posting isn't a breach of etiquette.

Not a breach of etiquette in the least, Ken, for classy folks such as you. I think many of us like hearing from fans of our opponents when they're friendly.

well, the danger of Mauer DHing and Redmond catching is that if Redmond has to come out - even for a minor reason - and Mauer has to catch, then the pitcher has to bat. The only way around that is a third available catcher.

It's not really fatalistic logic - LeCroy retained a bench spot for a long time based on that principle alone. It would give Gardy a ton of options in late innings, and he could play the hot hand(s) without worrying about matchups or a short bench.

Nevin's downsides would be age and price, but both of those may actually help get a deal done. The Cubs certainly don't need him long-term, and they barely need him short-term even with Lee hurting again.

Well, word on the street was that he had attitude about playing outfield, but from what I understand, he simply was unaware how to play.

he seems to be happy there now. Maybe I'm the only one, but I think Soriano is a second baseman who was thrust into a veary different role this summer, and the media decided he was throwing a fit.

you think that refusing to play isn't "throwing a fit?" I sure do. at least he went with it and DID play, after all, but I don't get the impression that he's happy there. I think it's a front so he can shed the "throwing a fit" image he got at the start of the season.

Very few major blockbuster pushes at the deadline actually do anything to improve the team. Most of the time, teams UNLOADING players and acquiring "lesser" players do better (see 2004 Red Sox).

I say stay put, bring in Garza, and let it ride.

Man, last night's game was nail-bitingly exciting the whole way through. Cisco pitched a great game but the Tigers sure have some great defense. I'm guessing if Pudge was behind the plate, we wouldn't have scored any runs, considering he usually throws out 80% of basestealers. It was a heartbreaking loss, but then again, there is a reason these guys are the best team in baseball. I'm looking forward to the game tonight. I'm feeling very optimistic about today's game, though. I feel like Radke can hold it down.

and i believe that most everyone wants to try to steal second against the tigers, cause they just dont want to have to stand next to chris shelton.

I don't want a guy with 77 -lifetime- games in left field trying to figure out the Dome on short notice.

One more point on the whole third catcher thing before I let go. Right now, a Mauer day off is just that - NBP starts, Mauer sits, pinch hits if necessary. There is no feasible middle option. Anyone who's followed the career of Mike Piazza knows that having a career catcher be able to take a day off from catching while still hitting can be a good thing for both the team and the player's career.

I think that if Terry Ryan makes a move it has to be something that adds a piece without subtracting. It's not broke, so there's no need to fix anything, just add to it a bit. A veteran bat who can be a versatile fielding option without demanding at bats or taking someone's spot would be ideal.

In 87 the Twins brought in Don Baylor as a similar addition - a spot DH who could serve as a veteran presence on the bench and be a name in the on-deck circle late in games.

Nevin has never played in a plyoff game in 10 years of major league service, and has never played for an AL team - I think he's the kind of player that would benefit from a change of scenery, especially into what hopes to be a dogfight pennant race.

quick. somebody hide LNP. nate robertson's looking for a snack

You know, I don't blame BG for not posting after last night. I was so discouraged after the game. I can't believe Zach Miner shut us down. I could point the finger at Ricon--he certainly didn't pitch well--but the fact of the matter is that we should've won the game before extra innings happened. It was a cryin' shame to spoil Liriano's brilliance. I tell you what, he might just be neck and neck with Santana for strikeout lead before it's over!

Now, Radke, pretty please throw like you have the last 10 games. PLEASE?

Dear Mr./Ms Fan,

Batgirl does not do game recaps on weekends.

Sincerely,
Batgirl

The thing that hurt most last night (other than Franchise hanging that 1st inning changeup to Mags) was trying to have Kubel bunt the Doctor over. I wondered aloud before the AB if he could actually bunt-I guess not.

The Twins need to score some runs today. Chicago has Garland going against Chen, and the Yankees have The Unit against Seo. No better than 10% odds against either team today. C'mon, Bradke.

Thanks for the welcome, Nick.

I admit to being -- eh, "surprised" isn't really the right word, because seeing the Tigers find some way to scratch out a win against a great pitcher doesn't really surprise me anymore -- I guess "gratified" maybe, that the Tigers were able to get a win last night. For this series, looking at who they're up against (meaning both the pitching rotation and the way the Twins have been playing, along with the fact that they're playing in the Dome), I came into it thinking, "I'll be very disappointed but not despondent if they get swept; I'll be satisfied if they win one; I'll be very happy if they win two; and I'll be amazed and thrilled if they could actually sweep." The Twins have the best home-field advantage in the game, and Gardenhire (wisely, I thought) adjusted the rotation to feed Detroit his three best pitchers, while Leyland (also wisely, in a different way) just let the rotation fall where it naturally fell, which left poor Zach Miner hanging out there against Liriano, a match up I figured to be not unlike Wally Cox staring down Chuck Norris and saying "Make your move!"

But Zach outshone his recent hurling performances (which had made me and many other Tigers fans hurl). He certainly did not pitch at the same level as his shining-star opponent, and there were times he looked tentative, uncertain and well, yes, downright scared. But he gritted through it, and made a damn tense and exciting game out of it, and gave his team a chance to hold the line, while being able to do nothing (not even reacquaint themselves with the view from second base) against Liriano after that little flurry of activity in the first inning.

Now tonight's game, I was thinking/hoping/feeling would be the one in which the Tigers would have the best shot of winning, IF the right Nate Robertson shows up, he being prone to consistent inconsistency. And tomorrow could either be a blowout for the Twins (if Bonderman pitches like he did against the Indians last Monday -- though he got the win, it was because the Tigers' bats were mighty, not because the pitcher's arm made the Tribe meek) or a bona-fidesque battle of Titans, like the earlier scoreless-through-seven contest between Verlander & Santana. Me my own self personally, I always love a great pitchers' duel. We'll see.

No matter what, my Baseball Sense is tingling (it's sorta like a Spider Sense, except I got it from being bonked on the noggin by a foul ball off the bat of Al Kaline in my youth), and I just know there's going to be some goose-bumpy toe-curly flesh-crawly exciting baseball played out in the Dome the next couple o' days. And that's just the kind of baseball I've been waiting for, lo these many sad years past.

Best of regards and respects to all you Twins fans, and may we both enjoy the play of the games today and tomorrow, even though one side or the other must ultimately be disappointed in each final score. And may the Twins outshine both the hated ChiSox and the much-despised Yankees for the AL wild card.

Dear Mr, K,

Not remotely a breach of etiquette. You are most welcome here.

Sincerely,
Batgirl

Up to #4 in ESPN's Power Rankings:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/powerranking

Thanks, BG, for the explanation. Haven't been on the site long enough to know the ins and outs. I'm getting there, though!

Wolfpackman, I live in NYC and get to see just about every game. MLB Extra Innings, worth every penny. :-)

Why the Twins need to make a move

Down 3-2 to the Tigers in the bottom of the 10th:

L Rodriguez substitute for J Rabe.
L Rodriguez grounded out to first.
R White flied out to right.
J Tyner struck out swinging.

Friday's final Tigers 3, Twins 2

If the Twins have to depend on any of the above-mentioned players for late-game heroics, I would rather they not make the playoffs and keep guys like me focused on the NFL and Big Ten Football come September. It really is an embarassment that late in the game the Twins are trying to match up against a team's closer by subsituting something named Luis Rodgriguez to bat for something named Jash Rabe.

If you Twins fans really think the team can stand pat with names like these in the lineup, you should put down the magic Kool-Aid and switch to the Acid-laced orange juice.

SOR-I-AN-O!!!!!!!!!!

Hank, step AWAY from the tequila.

Uhhh. I think the point is that we aren't going to be able to get him shy of giving up The Rochester Redwings. All of them. So what's the point? The Yankees can play that game but the Twins cannot. Repeat it.

S M A L L M A R K E T.

Um, also, that's 6-7-8 in the order. And I'm pretty sure we'll all convinced Rabe is heading back to Rochester soon. I also haven't seen anyone overly opposed to dealing White if the Twins get an upgrade. Torii coming back puts him 6th in the order.

So no, Twins fans don't plan on winning the LCS with those names in the lineup. Other than maybe Tyner, batting 8th. Soriano ain't happening, man. Look at the freaking market. The Twins cannot compete without selling their souls for who amounts to a bitchy, non-team player. Forget it.

DON'T WORRY, TWINS FANS! LOHSE IS IN THE GAME! HERE WE COME!!!

oh, wait...

OK, maybe Rabe can stay. Everyone else is at the game, obviously. LUCKY.

Yeah, was wondering if anyone would take back their Rabe comments...; ) (I'm not there either, boo.)

Thx, Doc&Josh for putting us back in there....

PS: And those AT the game are not getting the thrilling closeups of Lil' WTF's tounge action when he pitches, I don't think I've laughed that hard in awhile....

Another Tigers fan here... anyway, first off, Batgirl, you run a fantastic site here! I read it everyday since hearing about it from Deadspin.

Also, I must say that while the Twins may have lost the last two games, it wasn't by much, and they certainly put the fear of God into the Tigers, especially tonight! There are plenty of good things happening in Minnesota, I'm a big fan of the Twins when you're not playing the Tigers, and I believe we're all united in a common hatred of the BitchSox!

Can't wait for tomorrow's game!

-Bob

An enemy of my enemy is my friend, Bob.

Another good heartbreaking game. Good job tigers. Keep on hatin the whitesox.

And please take them down again in your next series.

I've posted before as a Tiger fan, but not in a while now.

Just wanted to say the Twins are going to be a very scary first round opponent if they get in the playoffs. I don't envy anyone who has to face Santana and Liriano in a short series.

Also, think how young the Tigers and Twins are -- Mauer, Mays, Liriano, Santana, Bartlett, Robertson, Granderson, Thames, Verlander, Miner, Zumaya...

This could be the start of a wonderful AL Central rivalry.

Mays?

Don't forget Dr. Morneau though. Our resident slugger.

GOOOO SANTANA!
I am going to be away from the computer for the next week, but will be listening from the caben. Now lets win tomarow, and then lets go for the sweep.

From twinsbaseball.com
"Radke has been fighting through a tear in his pitching shoulder all season, and after the game Gardenhire said that his inability to get the arm loose factored into his struggles."

I was at the game tonight, my friends, and though my rally cap worked every time I switched it around (the rally cap is magic, and anyone who says otherwise has simply not seen it in action), it was not enough. I am frustrated but not defeated. It's games like these, series like these that seperate the real fans from the bandwagoners.

In addition, I had the misfortune to sit next to a cadre of very, VERY ungracious Detroit fans. I mean, O-B-N-O-X-I-O-U-S. Really rub-it-in-your-face, class-free antics. And I was embarassed for them. I would expect such trash from Bitch Sox fans, but not Detriot. Till now, all the Detroit fans I've met have been really classy. But these fans--I was so tempted to turn round and tell them that their team had lost 100 games in recent memory, which pretty much takes away the license to be a punkass and gloat.

I will be at the game tomorrow as well--and I cannot wait to see Santana sit the bitches down. Because he will.

ah, the rally cap magic. there are certain magics in baseball, and i believe in them all. like when mientkievicz used to find a magic place to sit in the dugout. i wonder, can others use that one too? or is it only he who can harness those powers?

I don't think anyone can fully fathom the rules of superstition in baseball. All I know is if you find something that works, for the love of God, do NOT change it.

until it stops working...

"So no, Twins fans don't plan on winning the LCS with those names in the lineup. Other than maybe Tyner, batting 8th. Soriano ain't happening, man. Look at the freaking market. The Twins cannot compete without selling their souls for who amounts to a bitchy, non-team player. Forget it." - CLay Jr.

At least someone admitted it. This team may be lucky enough to win a wild card, but nothing more. That's not what frustrates me.

What frustrates me is that they are at a tipping point where a trade for a proven bat WILL put them over the top. This has been the case for some time now, and is exactly the reason why this born-and-raised Minnesota guy has come to appreciate teams like the Red Sox and Cardinals who have proven it is possible to achieve a balance of big name trades and free agents with developing in-house talent.

I don't think the team needs to become a big spender like the Bosox, but I pray for the day when Walt Jocketty is hired to replace Terry Ryan, who gets demoted to a position in scouting. Because that's all he's good for.

I'm not clayjr and I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that what he was saying there was that we cannot compete in the marketplace for Soriano. Not that the Twins cannot compete. :shrugs:

IMO the Nats can take their Soriano and stuff 'em in a sack (to paraphrase a fictional former employee of the Yankees... *g* ).

Especially if Garza is the price...and it sounds like he is.

YMMV.

Jamar's right. Although for a while last night, it started to feel like May all over again, and I had my doubts. But obviously, this team can compete with the Tigers-they just need a little more to catch them. Torii coming back helps, and I would like to see a Rondell White upgrade.

Speaking of superstition, the last time I piled on Radke on here, he picked it up. So, in that spirit-

I am even more sold on the 4th or 5th starter idea now. I am 100% convinced that if Radke starts a post-seasoon game against the Tigers or Yankees, that's a game the Twins are gonna lose. Good teams and Central foes have a tendency to beat up on Radke. I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about that, but I'm certainly not in the "let's hope Radke doesn't retire" crowd, either.

Nora:

What, you didn't hear the Twins signed the Kid Willie May(e)s?

Oops! Yeah, I meant Morneau there, not the Twin-turned-Red.

Carmen said: "I had the misfortune to sit next to a cadre of very, VERY ungracious Detroit fans."

Sadly, there are spit-for-brains fans of every stripe - including Tiger stripes. It's a shame they caused you distress. If it happens again, please get their names or snap some photos or something so they can be identified, and I and some other loyal and decent Tigers fans will hunt them down and teach them some manners, using stern words and an aluminum softball bat. (It would be wrong to profane a real, big-league-legal wooden bat.) Unprovoked rudeness is always low-class, but RUN-provoked rudeness when you're a guest in someone's house is despicable. And stupid; you're invariably outnumbered.

Rondell came out of the game in the 4th. God, I hope we made a deal.

click TD for article: Abreu and Cory Lidle to Yankees for three minor leaguers.

Underwhelming.

McClellan is F***ING terrible. My knee is bigger than this strike zone.

This game is reminding me of Batgirl's Johan = Superman post...This kind of stuff just doesn't happen to him! It felt like torture watching him throw over and over, sweat running down his face. And some of his really great throws somehow ended up "balls." Dick and Bert keep saying McClellan is a great ump. I'm not seeing it today, anyhow. You gave it your all, Johan. That's all anyone can ask.

Smell those ribbies!

Remarkable win. That's why we need to play Redmond more.

And the BitchSox blow a game they had in hand. Excellent.

Thank you, KenK. I knew that I just had the bad luck to run into a convention of bad fans. I met several other fans today and they were nothing if not pleasant and humble.

And I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought some of the calls were suspect. I usually refrain from blaming officials, and not that I have the best seat in the house from section 201, but there was more than one instance of outrage for me.

I got the Detroit feed today on the Extra Innings package, and their announcers were shocked at the calls Johan wasn't getting. My earlier post was right after a double that followed a 'ball' right on the inside corner. What a crazy win today. That was huge.

Another article worth reading (click me) from the Detroit Free Press. I apologize if it's been posted already, but I wanted to share this excellent quote:

"Earlier in the season," Leyland recalled, "they were swinging from their [rear]."

You know, I am gratified every time I read the nice things the Tigers and their media say about us. A lot of resepct and zero attitude. Well done.

Just wanted to correct the record from an earlier post. Phil Nevin has played in the AL before. He came up with the Angels.

Not that I haven't made a lot bigger mistakes.