I would return my season tickets if this ever happened

Much love
Wonder Woman

Is victory so dear or division titles so sweet as to be purchased with chemicles and primadonna's? Forbid it almighty God, forbid it!

I know not what teams others may seek, but as for myself, give me respectability or give me my money back!

Carl Pohlad would never do that! He's the tightest billionaire ever. We don't need that kind of karma in the clubhouse.

Very silly indeed.

If the Twins were to sign Bonds I would be so very sad.

"Moreover, they are $11 million under last year’s payroll. If Carl Pohlad, the Twins’ owner, gave his general manager, Terry Ryan, another $6 million and instructed him to offer Bonds a one-year, $17 million contract, he would still have a good chance of making a profit on the deal. "

LMAO!!!

yeah, whatever. This writer clearly has decided that team research is all about numbers and has no concept of marketing a team identity. Bonds would be so completely out of place here that it's laughable - and if the writer researched anything else than stats, he would have figured that out.

Has the dear writer forgotten that the team is comprised of generally good people? I doubt a one of them have heard of the things that Mr. Bonds has injected into himself. The team is based on charisma, something that Bonds, would destroy.

what makes anyone think bonds will command 17 million. And he's frogetting arbitration that will push the payroll up by at least 8 million probally more.

Dear Batgirl

Lets say that hypothetically the Twins were to sign Bonds, and then, hypothetically, they were to win the division, with Barry beating the Bitchsox on the last day with a walk off, and then even more hypothetically they were sweep the Yankess in the ALCS, with Barry being the hero, and then yet even more hypothetically, they were to beat whatever team made it from the NL in a dramatic 7 game series, reminiscent of 1991, but instead of Kirby being the hero it was Big bad Barry......

Could you name the next batbaby/batkitty after Bonds ?

Hypothetically Yours

p.e.m.

Dear Twins fans

Barry Bonds has not failed any steroid tests, but Juan Rincon has. The Twins aren't as untainted as you might you think.

Helpfully
p.e.m.

Dear Mr. Mike,

The point is moot. The Twins do not have $17 million to sign Barry Bonds. They will not be under payroll once the contracts of the batting league champion and league MVP are taken care of, among others. This is why it is silly.

As for the steroids, of course you are right that Barry has never failed a test, but no one has claimed the Twins clubhouse has been chemical-free either, and Mr. Bonds' clubhouse troubles are widely documented. Batgirl truly loathes using her time moderating things here when they get cantankerous, and this site has never been a place where fighting is acceptable, so she would appreciate it if all would remember Batgirl's general happiness and sanity and refrain from antagonizing each other.

Sincerely,
Batgirl

>of course you are right that Barry has never failed a test

We don't know that for sure. Having read "Game of Shadows," I am convinced Bonds, Sheffield and Jason Giambi should be suspended and consigned to the same scrap heap as McGwire, Sosa and Rafael Palmiero.

But I think the silliest part of the column is that the writer apparently considers Bonds capable of playing a full season and considers him a regular and competent left fielder, something he has not been for years. All the opponent has to do is sign Sid Bream. Barry couldn't throw him out in his prime.

Boo Barry, leave booberry alone.

I'd be surprised if he signs for more than $10 million, and I thought read somewhere that last season he was doing more to be part of the team in SF than he ever had before.

Thus,

Personally, I would love to see Ryan sign Bonds: IF Bonds swore on stacks of bibles (or pharmaceutical catalogs, or whatever) to cut his prima donna crap; IF his contract is null and void if/when he fails a drug test, gets indicted, or banned from the game.

Barry Bonds's prima donna show has been going on since he was a young pup in Pittsburgh. The Twins don't sign those type of players, and Minnesota fans show disdain for them when they do make an appearance in the Cities. (See: Vikings/Moss, Culpepper; and T-Wolves/Marbury) I can think of a team, though, that certainly would pay the bucks and take the home run swings and the "show": the Yankees. Wouldn't Steinbrenner love the publicity of having the player who breaks the major league home run record on his team when it occurs? And Bonds could DH, being in the AL.

And, as has been mentioned, the fallacy in the NYT article is in believing that Pohlad would give Ryan money to sign a big-money free agent. LOL! And, even if this miracle would happen, I think Ryan would buy pitching, or so it seems from today's Star Trib article....

Oh, that article was too, too funny. I think CapitalBabs got it right--the writer looked at the numbers in front of him, but didn't look at anything else. After arbitration of Mauer, Morneau and Cuddyer, there's the $11 million.

I would rather have our guys make the news because they won things like, oh you know, batting champion, cy young or, um... mvp. Our guys are selfless and modest and that's what I like best about them. They are guys you aren't embarrassed to have on your team. They're Jimmy John's eatin', fire truck givin', strange legal name changin' fellas.

Silly article. Barry would just seem so out of place on the roster. And there's no way Pohlad or Ryan would cough up that much money for him... I don't even know how they managed to give 12 mil to my favorite outfielder who has a gimp foot once a season.

Snort, Snort. That is to funny! Carl putting a wedge in his wallet for that no good scum. Snort. Whew I have to stop reading this at work.

I'm going to at least give the author of the article credit for writing something at least a bit different than virtually every one of the thousands of media on site in Orlando this week. You're all perfectly correct in pointing out the issues that would preclude such a signing, but at least it wasn't one more stale article about TR's interst in Jason Jennings (who, contrary to what was written in at least one local paper this morning, is apparently all but signed, sealed and delivered to the Cubs in return for former 'boyfriend' JJ, among others).

If the Giants truly aren't interested in Bonds, I won't be a bit surprised to see him playing in a small-mid market uniform next year, for many of the reasons the NYT writer mentioned. I don't think he'll get anywhere near 17 mil from anyone, absent some pretty substantial incentives.

And if, by chance, he did end up a Twin, while he would certainly never threaten to become my favorite Twin, I'd at least reserve judgement on him until I saw how he performed on the field and in the clubhouse. I suppose I've become a bit pragmatic and maybe even jaded in how I view things. Not sure if that's good or bad.

JC

Disdain for Moss? He put butts in the seats! Sure he was acidic, but you watched because there was a chance, on every snap, that he would break for the post and pull the ball down.

As for the clubhouse cancer comments? Mauer and Morneau have been up here long enough to not let it affect them. Hunter will keep him in line. Santana rules the pitchers. The only guys I'd worry about Bonds corrupting is Bartlett or Kubel, and Kubel only if he started hitting well.

If the Twins can get Bonds for under $11 for one year, (with a 2nd year option) do it. If its a bust, well, we survived T-Fat. We'll survive this.

As Just Beth and others said--Twins dont have $11million--Cuddles, Mauer and Morneau will split that in arbitration. Besides, Barry's defense is not that good and he will have trouble dealing with the turf.

DAM

What do people mean by saying the Twins "don't have" the millions to pay Barry Bonds? Carl Pohlad doesn't have $17 million, are you kidding me? And the point of the article is that it could very well *earn* Pohlad money, if it gets the Twins into the playoffs. (I doubt Bonds is really worth five wins next year, but that's the premise of the article.)

I think Fehler (above) has a good point. Actually, there probably was a lot of disdain for Moss, but there's no doubt he did put butts in the seats. So would Bonds. Business-wise, Rosenheck has very good points. Of course, fan-wise, it's a different story -- but that wasn't the point of the article.

Buwahahahahaha!

I think you guys are being a little hard on Pohlad. In 1990, TK and McPhail approached the Pohlad family and pitched the idea of Jack Morris. Carl opened up the coffers for an extra $10-million (HUGE money at the time) to make the signing.

Each of the past playoff runs, Pohlad has expanded the payroll by a few million.

Pohlad is a shrewd businessman. Don't mistake that for being cheap. His profit-margin is in line with the rest of the league, and when he sees the chance to pump ticket sales by spending some extra change, he can be convinced by Twins management.

That said, bring in Jason Jennings - this Barry Bonds business is, as BG so eloquently put it, "very silly".

Giants Want Barry Bonds Back

http://www.comcast.net/sports/index.jsp?cat=SPORTS&fn=/2006/12/05/534791.html

Dear Mr. Away,

Twins fans have long accepted the difference between what Carl Pohlad HAS and what the Twins budget IS. 'Tis better for our long term sanity.

Alas,
Batgirl

Oh, I get it. Okay.

Ha - like Pohlad would just *give* us another $6 million to spend on ONE guy. That writer obviously doesn't know how creative Terry Ryan needs to be just to create a team year after year!

Oh no, this wouldn't work at all. He'd probably eat LNP.

k-bro

What the NYTimes writer forgets is that while Barry can account for an additional 5 wins due to his capabilities on the field, in the Twins dugout he'd be a liability to clubhouse morale and attitude to the tune of about 10 losses or more. Please, ChiSox, sign the bonehead.

I'd take him.

This whole thing about "clubhouse cancer" is absolutely ridiculous. San Fran went to the World Series with this guy, remember? And if their bullpen could have closed the deal, he'd have a ring.

He'd sit in his Barry World and the rest of the Twins would do their thing. (And I don't think we as Twins fans can act all high and mighty about Bonds' other problems. Remember Juan Rincon?)

I don't think I could be a baseball fan if it were a game in which "clubhouse morale and attitude" were worth 10 wins one way or the other.

Of course the column pitching this as a plausible idea is inane, but in some alternate universe I'd love to see them get Bonds. He's a terrible fit in that he's another lefty and poor Kubel would have nowhere to go (except to another team), but they'd simply win more games with him than without him, and I think that's a good thing.

bottom line is, the twins clubhouse is composed of good people. why should we sign barry bonds for $17 million, far more than our top paid player is paid now, with the kind of image he has? really, it's not worth the tradeoff. at all. the guy is not a twin and never can be.

The writer talks about the fact that Bonds' asking price is down. Why is the price down? Because there is no market for him. When it comes to the bottom line, owners are not dumb. If they could actually make money off the guy there would be a much greater market for him, driving the price up.

So, the only reason the Twins could "afford" Barry is because the market is way down on him. Why is it down? Because no one wants the jackass around (fans, players, etc...). So the Twins will be the one team dumb enough to bring him in? I don't think so. They just don't take financial risks. Say what you will about Carl's legendary cheapness ... There are precious few examples of his money being wasted. OK ... Rick Reed. But after that?

"the guy is not a twin and never can be."

Hell...I love our guys too...but what does that really mean? The Twins have had their shares of malcontents and problem players (AJ Pierzynski for instance).

This is the same thing that got said about Frank Thomas last year (and look at the teams kicking themselves now).

Chemistry is fine...but in baseball, more than any other sport, it's not that important. Baseball is a one on one interaction between a pitcher and a batter. Chemistry is more important to plucky middle infielders then a guy filling a DH spot who's going to show up, mash 40+ homeruns, and just do his job.

Seriously...we lionize these guys too much. Their professional athletes, not our next door neighbors.

And is anyone else just a little suspicious about how all the athletes that are regarded as "Cancers" and "cantakerous" are black (and/or in baseballs case, hispanic), while what seems to be to same behavior from white players in sports (ie: Brett Favre saying he "isn't payed to teach rookies) are just showing "a passion for the game."

Something to ponder.

Won't happen, pretty damn funny.. And, what? we had a left fielder last year? I thought we had like 4?

Josh,

I think you're underestimating "chemistry" in baseball. I'd contend it's *more* important than any other sport.

If you look at the schedule, it's grueling. These guys are eating, sleeping, traveling, living, working together on a scale that is only found in one other line of work: The Army.

In my 4th year of Army service, currently with Special Forces, I can't speak enough to the "chemistry" element. We call it "comraderie", but it's the same concept.

When you listen to the players on the Twins, they talk about what a difference it makes to enjoy showing up to the ballpark. I'm sure you find the same thing in your job - when you get to work with a bunch of good guys, you perform better. When you dread dealing with your co-workers, your performance goes down. Why do you think companies spend so much money on "team building" exercises?

The very nature of the baseball schedule makes this "teamwork" element more predominant than any other sport. In a game that is 90% mental, you need players to be mentally relaxed and at-ease.

If, by chance, you took this as hostile, just re-read it and picture me with a smile the entire time. Not trying to ruffle your feathers here, just stating a simple difference of opinion.

This is truly the kind of thinking one can only expect from a place such as New York, where throwing money at an aging controversial talent is something they can afford to do.

JohnWayne,
That makes a lot of sense, which is why a lot of people (including the Twins themselves, I guess) believe it, but it just doesn't comport with reality or history at all. The early-seventies A's hated each other passionately, and had one of the most successful multi-year runs in the history of the sport. From the Ruth-Gehrig Yankees to the Bonds-Kent Giants to any team with Ty Cobb or Mickey Mantle on it, a lot of teams with pretty questionable chemistry have been awfully successful if they've had good players. And, really, I don't think you can say the same thing about any team with bad players and great chemistry.

A thought about why, despite all that army-like togetherness, chemistry IS so much less important than it appears to be in many other sports: when they get out on the field, baseball is hardly more of a team game than golf is. You go out there and do your job. McNabb had to look around for open receivers and then consciously decide to throw to T.O.; Barry Bonds threw to Jeff Kent because a runner was going for second and that's where Jeff Kent was standing. He's not going to decide to turn and throw to center field instead because he hates Jeff Kent. He's just going to do his job.

That's not as intuitively pleasing as your argument, but it's one that attempts to explain what actually happens, whereas yours, for the above or some other reason I'm not smart enough to figure out, just doesn't.

Everyone in my class is looking at me, trying to find out what I am cracking up about.

-Barry hasn't failed a drug test, but didn't he sit out the entire first season of the new drug policy? How was he not able to come back from surgery so fast that time?

-As if CaPoh would pony up the extra dough!? ...even if there was this 11M lying around!

Y'know who the Twins should sign?!?! Jeff "The Super-Sub" Reboulet!

Heehee! Thanks for that laugh, BG. I'm amused by the idea of the twins jumping at "surprisingly average fielding." What exceptional mediocrity!

*prays to the baseball gods that this NEVER NEVER NEVER happens*

I'm able to attend a fair amount of Giants home games. Bonds would help us offensively. Even if he doesn't hit 40+ home runs, just the rate at which he gets on base would lead to more run production.

He's a liability in LF, though. I think the writers are being a little too nice by crediting his fielding due to his "instincts". He doesn't hussle which exacerbates his limited range (due to injury). Torii can only cover for him so much.

Still, I can't figure out why we'd dump that kind of cash on Bonds when there's a more viable alternative. If you're going to spend that money, why not spend it on Mike Piazza and make him the DH? They'd probably produce the same numbers, he could play more games at DH than catching for an NL team, he's cheaper, and he's a quality character guy. Not only that, but he's a righty, and would balance out our lineup a lot better than Bonds would.

I don't think we're "too nice for Barry Bonds" but I do think Piazza is a better option for cheaper.

As Dave Barry would say:

Excuse me while I laugh until my garments are soaked with drool.

Personally, even if all that 5-extra-wins-per-year stuff is true, I would rather we LOSE 5 extra games without Bonds than win 5 more with him. Can you imagine the Chairman, El Presidente, the Good Doctor, LNP, Red Dog and all the rest of our beloved, loveable Twins playing on the same team as Barry Bonds? Not that they couldn't do it, but they would all just be overshadowed by the relentless hype and scrutiny of The Barry Show. Players like Johan and Justin and Joe are overlooked enough as it is outside Twins Territory. I don't want them to lose one second of attention because of big stupid Barry Bonds.

I hope nobody signs him, but ESPECIALLY not the Twins.

The day Bonds beats Aarons record is the day I stop watching Baseball. Go Twins 2007!!!!!

Yes, perhaps Terry Ryan has not "publicly expressed any interest in Bonds" because he hasn't privately expressed any interest either.

I think it'd be a sure sign that the end is near if we see Bonds in a Twins uniform. . . ever.

Freez, there are good reasons to think that Bonds is much better in LF than the conventional wisdom tells us (which is not to say that he's *good*, just *average*). Here
http://tinyurl.com/vxmg3
David Pinto gives the ratings of LFers by his Probabilistic Model of Range. Basically, Pinto finds the number of balls hit to the position. Adjusting for velocity, type (fly, liner, grounder), park, and uh, some other stuff, he then finds the number of outs that are expected from that many balls. Barry was expected to get to 187 balls last year, and he got to 188.

And I love Piazza, but come on. Bonds slugs much higher and gets on base much more often.

You want to know who might not mind having Bonds on the team Mr. Sweet Cheeks Hunter. Afterall, on Baseball Tonight this past season he got very worked up defending Bonds. Torii even had to bring the race card out to defend him.

Yup Hunter might not mind at all. Plus he could be thinking of all the piggy back rides he'd get with Bonds on the team (ala the All Star game)

Happy Holidays
Cal

I have to agree with Freez on this one. If you're gonna spend the money on a DH, Piazza will come cheaper. Also he's expressed interest in coming to a less stressful environment, can back up at first and be the emergency catcher we don't want Morneau to be. His power numbers are still good as long as he's healthy. Besides, we're sure he doesn't do steroids.

Except maybe estrogen...

Just wondering what you fellow Twins fans thought... I have always been a huge Jacque Jones fan, and don't understand why we let him go in the first place, but supposedly the Cubbies are shopping him around, do you think we'd go get him back?

Josh,

Their melanin definicient hides notwithstanding, the sobriquet of "clubhouse cancer" has been applied to such Minnesota athletes as Jeff George and A J Pierzynski.

Really, though, it's not a nice thing to say about anyone. It's also insensitive to people who've had real cancers in their lives. I think "clubhouse jerk-ass," is a more appropriate term.

I think we should throw Bonds' defense out the window as a factor, now that I think about it. I doubt very much that he'd play on our turf in any capacity other than as a DH.

Bonds does get on base and slug at a higher rate. You're right... and he probably would help the Twins more offensively than Piazza. But is the difference worth the additional money?

Let's assume it costs $10M/year to get Piazza and $17M/year to get Bonds. Here are the relevant stats for each player last season:

Piazza SLG%: .501
Bonds SLG%: .545

Piazza OBP: .342
Bonds OBP: .454

Both had roughly the same number of at-bats (Bonds 367 - due to injury, Piazza 399 - due to sharing catching duties on an NL team).

Piazza is actually trending up in both categories, but he'll probably fall off a bit in reality, even if he doesn't have to catch anymore. Bonds is trending downward big time, especially if you throw out his 2004 injury season (14 games played).

So the question is whether that difference in OBP and slugging is worth 70% more money. Is it worth even 40% more? Maybe, but I doubt it.

I'm not saying Piazza's as good as Bonds. I'm saying he's probably a better *value* and possibly a better fit for the Twins lineup as a right handed power bat. His health is also less of a question mark than Bonds'.

You might make the argument that he'll draw more fans and more money to offset the cost, but I'm not so sure that's true given the sensibilities of fans in the market (which are clearly demonstrated by the reaction here).

I won't lie. I also don't want Barry because he's a jerk and I like that our guys actually have their heads on straight. I don't deny it. Why should we pay extra for all that jerkiness even if a little extra offense goes with it? We have a decidedly un-jerky alternative that actually loves the game more than himself. AND he says nice things about other people... in public, even! ;)

Even if you throw out the sentimental side of it, I'm not sure Bonds would be the best use of our $$$, even purely on paper.

- Freez

"and he probably would help the Twins more offensively than Piazza."

I didn't write it this way on purpose, I swear. ;)

Freez: I knew there was a big difference between Bonds' offense and Piazza's, but I didn't realize how immense the difference was until you posted the numbers. Over 120 points of OBP, /plus/ 40 points of slugging -- that's something like the difference between a leadoff hitter and an NL /pitcher/. There's absolutely no question that Bonds would be an enormous offensive upgrade to any team for which he plays.
However.
Signing Bonds is a huge risk for any team. His age and broken-down body threaten injury every time he steps on the field, and his potential legal troubles could imaginably keep him from playing too. From the business angle, he could potentially hurt the team's profits long after he's gone. Fans that come to watch Bonds hit home runs aren't likely to stick around when his contract ends, but fans that leave because they don't want to see Bonds as a Twin might find another team -- or something they'd rather do with their summers than watch baseball. Signing Bonds might mean a shrunken fanbase that might not recover until the new stadium is finished or the Twins win another World Series. Soon as we hope that time may come, and though much one-time money might be spent for a better /chance/ at a ring, no GM in his right mind would bet his long-term market on his team winning it all.

All things said and done, the writer gives several meaningful and thought-out points to his (misguided) argument, which is more than the local hacks ever do with theirs.

I know somebody's going to call me on my hyperbole about Bonds vs. Piazza resembling a leadoff hitter vs. an NL pitcher, so let me just say: I'm a Cubs fan. Our leadoff hitter last year was Juan Pierre. Our #1 starter (among those who actually pitched occasionally) was Carlos Zambrano.

Zambrano lifetime SLG%: .355
Pierre lifetime SLG%: .377

Zambrano lifetime OBP: .223
Pierre lifetime OBP: .350

I am very, very glad that Pierre was "lost" to the Dodgers. (Also: If Z had pitched for the Mets instead of the anemic Cubs last year, I think he would have won 20 games and the NL Cy Young. If he had pitched in front of last year's ridiculous Yankee lineup, he would have won at /least/ 20 games, but still wouldn't deserve to take the crown from Santana.)

I do not want Barry freakin' Bonds on my team.

If Barry comes here for a decent price, I'll cheer him. The man has never tested positive, and I don't think he'll be a detriment to the clubhouse.

I'd also be one of those people trying to get to every game that he had a chance at the record. And I think it would be sooner than end of season. San Fran doesn't have a very friendly lefty power-hitting park, the Twins do.

Oh and for the record: anyone who says they'll stop watching if such and such happens: stop lying to yourself and everyone else. We all know you're full of it. You might stop watching for a week or two, maybe a month if you're strong willed, but everyone who posts here wouldn't last any longer than that without their beloved Twins, or whichever other team you root for. So don't try to delude us or yourselves.

I'm normally a stats guy but this one occasion where you really do have to look beyond the numbers at the intangibles. Bonds is a terrible teammate and always has to be the number 1 guy, with his own TV and stuff. Why would you put that guy, at 42, in a team that contained the league MVP, the batting Champion and the Cy Young winner. Could Bonds play in a team that wasn't Barry's team? The only way it might work is to have him as DH and keep him in a special trailer so he doesn't actually interact with any of the other players. He'll stay with the Giants because really why would any other team want the grief that comes with him? And how you can honestly predict numbers for him? There are plenty of players who went on for a long time but then at the end suddenly lost it, Harold Baines comes to mind. You'd hear these comments about how he'll go on forever and then one day he just can't get hits any more. Plus with Bonds knees it wouldn't take much for him to be just unable to play at all.

I don't know how much race plays in how Bonds is seen. There are loads of white players who are seen in a very negative light, and no one's giving McGwire a free ride. Of course Bonds is also the privately educated son of a millionaire, which is not a background that's totally inconsistant with being a jackass.

"After all, Bonds never tested positive" is EXACTLY the same as saying "After all, Vito Corleone never spent a day in jail!" I hope Bonds signs with an American League team, at about HR #750 is playing against the Twins, and our own positive testee, Booberry, plops a 96 mph fastball square on Barry's protruding forehead, ending his career. And at HCMC, instead of giving him a cortisone shot, they realize it would be better to just stick him the supply room and use his as a resource for other patients. There. I said it.

-Glove Boy

I mean "stick him IN the supply room and use HIM as a resource . . ." Sheesh. I've got to switch to the decaf.

-Glove Boy

Here is what I do not understand. I know money is important, and there really is a difference between a 4 year $40M deal and a 5 year $45M deal and all that...but...

If I were a free agent, and saw a team that had a batting champion, MVP and unquestionable Cy Young winner (Triple Crown for both leagues in the AL, no less) -- all in an injury-riddled season with arguably bottom-half-of-the-league offensive production, I would want to come to the Twins.

How are they not a piece or two away from being a 4 time World Series champion team? And one of those 4-of-6 teams where over the next decade the Twins represent the AL in the Fall Classic 6 times? Liriano's coming, Hunter's going, and you pick up two or three solid parts (second baseman, center fielder, power corner OF) and who could stop them? Oh yeah, did I mention arguably the best closer in the league? (Rivera, if not already #2, will surely retire sometime relatively soon).

I guess my question is, why aren't the Julio Lugo's and Juan Pierre's and such saying "tell ya what, I've got $44M over 5 years or $36M over 4 years on the table with other teams, but give us $6M per for 4 and we'll win a bunch of championships."

I don't know. In my day job, when there is another offer on the table, it's always a decision based on money and other factors like success potential and happiness quotient. Why is it simply dollars here? Is it wrong to wonder why $25M and the potential for 4 rings isn't trumping $40M and almost certain failure and having to deal with negativity in the papers, etc.?

Makes no sense to me...

YankeeFan

Oh and by the way, it just occurred to me that Manny Ramirez alone brings 4 championships to the Twin Cities... if you don't give up too much that is. Discuss. :) I will be happy to give my analysis at any time.

YF

Hm, that's a good point, YankeeFan.
Add the fact that the Twin Cities is a very attractive place for a millionaire to live -- especially in the summer! -- and it does seem like the kind of players you want on your team could be drawn to Minnesota.

Only problem is, Juan Pierre stinks and Julio Lugo would still be overpaid even if he took a "good team discount". :-)

Sometimes the desire for championship rings is outweighed by the presence of major-market media. Twins = small market. New York / Chicago / LA, SF = big market.

Why all the hubbub this offseason about Morneau's MVP pick? Because the Major Media Markets (partic. ESPN) do not cover the Twins to anywhere near the same depth that they do the teams in their home cities. What about Santana's choice for Cy Young? The media should be waving him around as the second coming of Koufax; instead it's like "oh, yeah, that good pitcher from the Twins."

I can't see Bonds coming to Minneapolis. If Bonds leaves SF, it will be to another major market city. No way he comes to flyover-land.

Oh who cares? He'd never come here even if we had the money -the perfect ballpark etc...

I was just excited to read that our new park will have twice as many restrooms as the Dome and more for women!! Wohooo =)

It will only have 40,000 seats instead of 42,000 - but I'm ok with that=p

http://www.startribune.com/509/story/856550.html

Much Love
Wonder Woman

One: It'll never happen, so the rest of this doesn't matter.

Two: I'd welcome him. Hell, I'll buy him the recliner for his locker. I see I'm in the minority, but as long as the law's not after him, I don't care anything about his internal or external chemistry. I'd be happy watching him swing a bat for the Twins.

Three: This reminds me of an idea I've had for a winter poll, Batgirl. Guess the most steroids in a World Series. I’m only mentioning the admitted or suspected users, according to the blog Baseball’s Steroid Era, but of course, half of the fun is wondering who wasn’t caught.

1989 A’s (McGwire, Canseco) versus Giants

1993 Blue Jays versus Phillies (Dykstra, Hollins, Daulton)

1997 Marlins (Sheffield, Heredia, Saunders, Daulton) versus Indians

1998 Yankees (Pettite) versus Padres (Caminiti, Joyner, Leyritz)

2002 Angels versus Giants (Bonds, Santiago)

2003 Marlins (I. Rodriguez) versus Yankees (Giambi, Clemens, Pettite)

Most reports from the winter meetings say they can't find ANYONE interested in Bonds (except maybe the As, but they won't sign a "Bonds-like" contract). The Twins haven't come up in ANY discussions I've heard from the winter meetings. Bonds had to show up in person to actually try to stir up interest (or show up his Giants).

And about Rincon getting caught versus Bonds never testing positive... come on, people!!! Just look at the body types... Does anyone really doubt Bonds' guilt??? I like the Vito Corleone analogy :)
When Rincon tested there was a bunch of hubbub about South American athletes getting nailed as a result of lack of control over "suppement shakes" in SA. Was Rincon knowingly, seriously juicing??? come on...

I love YankeeFan's points (and Slider Away's response). What I /really/ don't understand is this: Even if they take "pay cuts" for winning teams or fun teammates or attractive cities, these guys are set for life. I can understand accepting $90K a year over $60K a year even if it means a worse working environment (I'm not sure I'd /do/ it, but I can understand) ... but $9M vs. $6M?!?! What do you do with the extra money at that point? Buy your fifth and sixth houses?

Well, hopefully what you do with the extra money is realize you've got 30-60 years of life after the game to deal with, and that you'd like to keep living as comfortably as you are, so you put it away.

So the Red Sox signed J.D. Drew and are probably keeping Manny. Enough about this Bonds stuff that's not going to happen anyway; I think the Twins should consider trying to trade for Wily Mo.

Dear YF

It's always about the money. Where you and I and most others would say that they would take less to win titles, its a job for these guys and money is far more important to them then anything else.

When we signed Johnny Angel away from the evil red sox last year, it was because we offered more money. He said he would never play here, but yet he had 52 million reason why he would. The difference was 12 million, for a guy that has made as much as him 12 million shouldn't make that kind of a difference, but it always does.

Pudge left FLA for Det, after winning a title because they offered him more money. That team may have been able to win 1 or 2 more, but Det offered 10 and Fla offered 7.

Its always about the money. Very few players would taking winning over being paid.

p.e.m.

Don't forget they've got agents, financial planners, and spouses in their ears, all serving as a constant pressure to take the "big money" contracts.

And why do players look to move to the major markets? Endorsements. How many ads have you seen Justin Morneau signed on for? An 830 radio spot for whirlpools, maybe? Jeter is getting national airplay on 3-different ads right now, because he's a major market star.

Major markets = major endorsements. Just a little something worth remembering when we wonder why, all things being equal, Bonds (or any star player) would rarely prefer to play for us.

this made me laugh -from ESPN's Jim Caple- the last sentence:

The winter meetings have outlived their purpose, and it's time to get rid of them for good. Far from providing needed public attention, they now mostly provide public outcry. $70 million for J.D. Drew! Holy mother of God! You're kidding me! Baseball needs that sort of talk like the Super Bowl needs more hype. All the winter meetings do is provide a platform for agents to pressure general managers into paying Neiman Marcus prices for players who will be available at Target in a couple weeks.

Much Love
Wonder Woman

Sure, JD Drew will be getting more money than Johan Santana, but I bet he'll play in *twice* as many games, so don't laugh.

JohnWayne, truedat. Although I kind of doubt there are major brands kicking down the door looking for Bonds' endorsement.

This is what the off-season is all about... Bonds will obviously never be a Twin, but some idiot NY writer says he should be and Twins fans type tens of thousands of words about it on message boards all over the web.

As far as JD Drew getting more money than Johan (or Manny or Papi, for that matter): How much money you sign for has as much to with who else is a free agent that year as anything. If Manny or Johan were a free agent right now, they'd be signing for twice as much as Drew. There just aren't a lot of elite free agents this year, so the law of supply and demand is more noticeable. It's not about a free agent's absolute worth vs. every other player in the Majors, but his relative value vs. similar guys that can be had that year. This is why teams are going ape trying to sign Gil Meche.

Whoever mentioned trading for Wily Mo Pena: that's a good idea. He's pretty one-dimensional, but that dimension is power, and it's the one the Twins need most.

Apparently Bonds is now whoring himself at the meetings.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6244784?FSO1&ATT=HMA

Hang on, ralf -- no doubt Bonds *will* not be a Twin, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good fit. A lot of fans here seem to think he is. Rosenheck may indeed be an idiot, I have no idea; but the article isn't idiotic.

Drew isn't getting more money than Manny. And of course, the real reason Santana isn't a $25 million man right now is that he has *never* been a free agent. But come 2008 he will be a very wealthy man, no matter who else is on the market.

Wily Mo Pena: well, anyway, he's cheap. He'll strike out a hundred times and drive you nuts, but, he's cheap.

I am amused by the mere fact that any of you are actually thinking that this could or should happen. First off, the article mentions the lack of production from the Twins' left fielders; does anyone honestly think Bonds is still a serviceable fielder? If he's on an AL team, he's almost certainly DHing. And there is also no chance in thw world that Carl Pohlad pays Barry Bonds the kind of money he'd want, regardless of how many people that might put in the seats. The Boone was a good risk because he didn't cost anything; Bonds would cost us a lot. And BG's point about the budget is critical - how could the writer of that piece have failed to mention the fact that the Twins have several top players eligible for arbitration, and that those salaries will more than exhaust the $11 million surplus? Ridiculous. But, most of all, Barry Bonds won't play for the Twins because he's not a team guy. Say whatever you want about the Giants making it to the Series - you could argue that they made it there in spite of Barry, not because of him. Pierzynski was a pain in the bum, but he was homegrown and he was cheap; this team will endure a guy like that if it makes sense, but they're not about to bring in an obnoxious, oft-injured prima donna for $17 million a year. And you know what? If the difference between the Twins winning a Series next year is whether or not they have Bonds, I'd rather lose. No question about it. Despite the mantra of our culture, there are still things more important than winning.

Oh, and Bonds did fail a test. Spelling, fourth grade. Kept spelling "team" "B-A-R-R-Y".

"...does anyone honestly think Bonds is still a serviceable fielder?"

Yes, as I pointed out above (6:13), people who have actually analyzed data do think so:

http://tinyurl.com/vxmg3

Pinto also notes that the analysis squares with his own impressions watching Bonds play the outfield.

Too much stats, not enough sass.

So it's SONG TIME!!!!

[polka mode]
I don't want him, you can have him,
He's too juiced for me, HEY!
He's too juiced for me, HEY!
He's too juiced for me,
Oh, I don't want him, you can have him,
He's too juiced for me,
He's too juiced,
He's too juiced,
He's too juiced for me! HEY!
[/polka mode]

It will be interesting to see what happens to the $11 million. Not all will go to Mauer, Morneau and Cuddyer unless they are offered long term deals. I'd like a free agent DH, just like every year I can remember, even when David Ortiz was on the team. Although I'd take a man with a big heart and plenty of fish glue if he wanted to come back for another year.

In the interest of the teams future, it may not hurt to say, give Johan Santana a 2 or 3 year extension with a $6 million dollar signing bonus. If you ask me what to do with extra money, I will inevitably give it to Santana because based on the pitching contracts, he should be making somewhere between 16 and 25 mil a year. Instead of, you know, 10.

I can't really add anything to the Barry discussion. Barry's bat would look good in the lineup. It's fun trying to decide whether Giambi, the 'traitor', Canseco, the 'rat', or Barry, the 'big fish' who has refused to sell out his friends publicly, is the better person. Like ranking the levels of hell fun.

The Piazza question's moot anyways as it appears he's gonna sign with the A's as strictly a DH today or tommorow. Talk is 8-9 mil. He's signing only a one-year deal - Oakland offered him two - because he's not sure if he want's to only DH for two years. Seeing that his numbers will surely rise as a DH - to me slugging % or OBP is a little less relevant than his RBI (68) and HR (22)totals. Besides the Doctor and maybe Sweetcheeks who else is going to get near 30 HR's? So for 9 mil I think he's a bargain. For Oakland that is.

So Twins fans, here's your DH for next year:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061206&content_id=1752602&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2688589

Finally, an ESPN article that I don't have to pay to read! And it's sort of good! I have to remind myself not to get my hopes up, but I say give him 137 million dollars.

I am going to say right now that I would personally be thrilled if Rondell came back. He's said that he wants to come back, Gardy wants him back, and if he can continue to put up numbers like he did after the All-Star break he is going to be a great deal, especially if he's willing to take a pay cut.

And the fact that Bradke has not yet announced his retirement when they were saying he was going to do it in early November makes me cling to some hope that he'll come back. They keep saying it's not likely, but I will not be convinced until he officially announces that retirement.

If both of these guys came back that would solve a lot of problems without having to overpay mediocre free agents.

I have to agree about White. He was probably the second best hitter (behind Morneau) we had in the offseason, even though he had a (very) slow start to the year.

BillP -- I definitely agree about saving for Life After Baseball, but once you have a (multi-)million dollar house with no mortgage owed and a few million dollars more in decent investments, you're set to live like the rich until you're a hundred and ninety and still leave a pile for your kids. Maybe my imagined wealthy lifestyle doesn't match up to the players' needs though: not enough sports cars per year, and not enough jewels per week for the wife.

Adidasman -- There are lots of reasons to not like Bonds, but you can't reasonably say the '02 Giants made the Series in spite of him. He had the single best offensive season to that point in baseball history, and played (arguably still plays, though barely) a better than average left field, and as for the rest of the guys on that team ... well, Nen was great until his arm fell off, and Schmidt found his stride (latish) that year, but a starter and a closer don't make a playoff team. The only other legitimate star in the lineup was Kent, and his name would have a lot less cachet than it does if he wasn't seeing "I can't walk this guy in front of Bonds!" pitches in his best years.

I got a column that meets and exceeds that level of silliness in leaps and bounds.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061205&content_id=1751013&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws (or click name)

I would be fine with them bringing White back, but hopefully he can hit like he did in the second half '06 all of '07, another start like that and we had better be looking for someone in July.

I REALLY want Bradke to come back next year if he can pitch, but wouldnt he need surgery? And if so, I wonder when he would be ready to go...

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooyah!!

Hahahahah. I find it very silly also. Bonds to Minnesota would be very very crazy.

Cubsalot, all I know is that ol' Barry seemed to ruffle lots of feathers in SF; my guess is that all that tension didn't help them once they got to the Fall Classic. Maybe his season got them there, but he may not have done them any favors in the long run. He got the Pirates to the playoffs a few times and didn't exactly set the world on fire once he got there, as I recall.

And besides, if I want a big, lumpy, bloated hitter on the Twins, we can get Matty LeCroy at a much more attractive price - and you can bet Michael Cuddyer would never have asked Barry to be a groomsman.

True, Adidasman: Neither DJ Cuddles nor any other Twin (or '02 Giant for that matter) would want Bonds as a groomsman -- and depending on how things work out, any league-average guy who actually /plays/ might be better for the '07 Twins than Bonds. As for '02 though ... Bonds absolutely tore up the Fall Classic. His postseason performance, especially in the World Series, made even his regular season look pedestrian. '02 Bonds practically /was/ the '02 Giants -- which can't have helped tame his already-bloated ego.
All the same, you're probably right that the Twins shouldn't pursue him. To say that '07 Bonds won't be nearly as good as '02 Bonds would be a massive understatement, and the Twins without him are infinitely better than the Giants without him would have been ... and his ego has had time to /grow/ since then.
(And one could say that the way the Giants lost the '02 series -- after handing a five run lead to their lights-out bullpen just eight outs from the series victory -- could be a clear sign from the baseball gods: No matter how well Bonds hits the ball, his team will never get a ring.)

"And about Rincon getting caught versus Bonds never testing positive... come on, people!!! Just look at the body types... Does anyone really doubt Bonds"

But that's the thing. You're misunderstanding how steroids, in the first place, work. Steroids allow muscle tissue to repair faster. So even if a pro-athlete is on steroids, if they want to bulk up they still have to beat the tar out of their body in the weight room. The benefit of steroids in baseball, as we've come to see from who is getting suspended for them, really ways much more in favor of relievers and pitchers. It allows them to be more effective day after day because their arms heal faster after the beating that is pitching a few innings in the major leagues (The stress it puts on the arm is phenomenal). For relievers, it allows them to be more effective.

Also...you here a lot about guys that are bad for team chemistry...but look at the 2004 White Sox. They won with Frank Thomas (mostly hurt), AJ Pierzynski, and Carl Everett. I'm sorry, if you can win like that, chemistry just really can't be that big of a deal (and most pros say the same thing).

And the point is now moot...

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061207&content_id=1754473&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

Moot? MOOT??!! No way - we can't sign Moot!!! He's a clubhouse cancer, and everyone knows it! He's a chemically-enhanced freak with an ego the size of Sid Hartman's! (Maybe bigger, if that's possible.) If the Twins sign Moot, I'll...I'll...I'll set my head on fire and run headlong into Carl Pohlad's office with a can of gasoline in my hands! I'll force Terry Ryan to sign an absurdly overpriced free agent! I'll...I'll...ummmmm...

I won't buy a jersey with his number on it, that's for sure. "Moot" will look stupid on the back of a jersey, anyway.

Batgirl's original statement was of course the most accurate from the beginning, as well as the most succinct. A silly article indeed.

"And the point is now moot."

The point was actually already mooted by the sheer stupidity of it. Its inevitable mootness was the whole point of the post.

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