It's the year 2022... People are still the same. They'll do anything to get what they need. And they need SOYLENT GREEN.

It looked to me like he had just changed the oil in his car . . . or rubbed Tim McCarver's head and the Clairol for Men hair color came right off.

What I really want to know is why he didn't get fired up like he is now when he pitched for the Twins. He was a boring innings-eater and now he's 42 year old stud.

That was Oakland A's blood on his hand. He seemed to pitch okay without it after the 1st. Doug Jones could use some of whatever it is.He certainly makes me appreciate Joe Nathan.

PEOPLE!

Let's just say that when you're forty-one and you're pitching in the biggest game of your career, it's common for incontinence to rear its ugly head.

Dunno- but I heard he got it from Chuck Heston- it's clear though that he "took his love to town " last night...

Judging by the results, I'd say whatever was on Kenny's thumb was probably invented by Vernon Simpson.

It looked like pine tar, aka Bert's magic curveball juice, to me.

The answer is 42. Oh wait, wrong book!

Kenny is testing the lastest product from BALCO—it has a long chemical name, but it's better known as 'The Not-So-Clear.'

I was kind of hoping Todd "Hey, Al, Don't Call Me Doug, That's Not My Name" Jones would blow the entire lead, just to see Kenny's reaction.

No, no, Franorama - it's called "the smear". You can tell Kenny's using, too - just look at his jutting chin. That's the telltale sign of a smearer. The chin just gets larger and larger, like a caricature of Dick Van Dyke, until one day it explodes (after which the victim looks more like Rose Marie than Dick). How else can one explain his sudden ascension to the pinnacle of pitching mastery this late in his career? But he's willing to pay the price for this last taste of postseason glory. Kenny, the ring will be nice, but you'll look pretty goofy without a chin. (Not that you don't look goofy already, of course.)

I'm 99% sure it was pine tar.

That said, go Cards.

/I don't find any form of cheating funny
//Crucify Bonds? Don't be hypocritical then...

"It could have been anything on his hand. It could have been chocolate cake."
-- Tigers closer Todd Jones

Well then - that explains everything Kenny forgot his fork while eating a piece of chocolate cake before the game
The mystery has been solved!

Much Love
Wonder Woman

Todd Jones looks like he'd know a thing or two about chocolate cake...

Pshh. What we all really need to do is go vote for Tyner, representing the Twins:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/fan_forum/holiday_inn/lapy/index.jsp

I watched the game, but I didn't even look at Kenny's thumbs. I know the sportscasters mentioned it but I still forgot to look. Go Tigers.

The med-head guy at Baseball Prospectus thinks it's the gunk from underneath the tape that the trainers use. For what it's worth.

Why would he leave gunk on his hands from the tape trainers use? What other pitcher does that? That explanation sounds fishy to me.

More good stuff from the Strib...

On Nov. 18, Twins ace Johan Santana will be presented with the Luis Aparicio Award, honoring him as the best player from Venezuela in 2006.

Santana also won the award after the 2004 season. Last year, Florida's Miguel Cabrera -- a player the Twins pursued as a teenager -- won the award, named after the Venezuela-born Hall of Famer who played shortstop for the White Sox.

"Soylent Green is people!" [tm Charlton Heston]

;-)

>//Crucify Bonds? Don't be hypocritical then...<

That's kind of the problem here. MLB has painted itself into a corner by looking the other way, inventing techicalities, making excuses, etc., for Barry and others. Now, they can't go after Rogers without being mega-hypocritical. LaRussa certainly can't force the issue, whatwith Big Mac in his past and knowing any sort of current follow-up may not just stop at the opposing Tiger dugout.

And so we have denials and forced chocolate cake jokes, because that's all that's left to them.

That is what think too, Franorama. Baseball has brought this on themselves. They have let the players get away with whatever they want. Part of it seems to be they are trying to cover up things by denying they exsist. Problem is, it is too late for that. They need to crack down on it so that it stops not deny that it exsists.

It was nothing. Maybe a little Vaseline...or WD40...or KY....or Fish Glue....or nougat! Because who really knows what nougat is?

From what I've heard about this incident, fans are making a much bigger deal about this than baseball people. My only concern was how much it may have help him in the ds/cs because he was brilliant without last night (and I'm leaning towards it gave him a better feel). I just wish rogers hadn't tried to dodge the question after the game; he just didn't want controversy and ended up answering a question poorly. Not like the media has anything against kenny rogers or anything. In fact, pretty sure that's the problem here.

One thing is for certain: everyone (rogers, cards plyers/staff, umpires) has taken credit for noticing the substance, and the only part of the story that seems to check out is the 'we didn't want controversy' part. That, coupled with 7 dominate innings, is good enough for me to dismiss this.

I'm cheering for whoever is trailing in the series, so I hope the cards win 2 of 3 in St louis and tigers/rogers even the series after 6.

Whatever it was, he washed it off and continued on his way. NOT having it on certainly didn't affect his performance. I'm going to have to trust Kenny when he says it was just a mixture of dirt and rosin from the baseballs and that he washed it off as soon as possible after he noticed it (I CERTAINLY hope it was NOT an illegal substance because that would lower my respect for Kenny). *goes to vote for Tiny Tyner because he's definitely the coolest DH-who-can't-seem-to-hit-homeruns around...and because he's a Twin and one of her boyfriends.*

I seriously doubt that Kenny Rogers is going to have an illegal substance on his hand in the World Series, especially not something that everyone can see with the naked eye.

dirt, cake, whatever. I have no doubt there's nothing here to worry about. and I don't even like Kenny Rogers.

I agree with what has been said about the hypocrisy in Major League Baseball. I would also like to note that Tim McCarver and Joe Buck brought up the fact that Kenny had something on his thumb. They didn't HAVE to show that to however-many million Americans were watching the World Series, but they chose to. I'm not trying to blame the whole thing on them (okay, maybe I am), I'm just saying that it wouldn't have been as big of a deal if it hadn't been played on national television.

Haha. When I went to vote for Tyner, I thought that Joe Crede and Scott Proctor had the lead. That got me wondering, "Why are members of two non-World Series teams leading?" Then, I realized that my boyfriend, Brandon Inge, was actually leading with 26%. Now, as much as I love the guy, I'd rather see Tyner win it. Also to be noted is the fact that David Eckstein is leading the NL. (I'm now done posting for the day.)

It was poo to shoo away nosy cameramen.

Fron MLB.com,
"I'm a mudder," Rogers said speaking to a crowd of reporters around his locker before the Tigers workout at Busch Stadium.

"I don't mind getting dirty," Rogers said. "I like dirt. I like mud on [the ball]. Nobody likes to throw a brand new baseball."

Clearly, it was poo. Human poo.

Nobody can say Kenny Rogers isn't a throwback. I think it was the 1930's the last time somebody threw the shit-fingered fastball.

Being Detroit, I imagine it was 10W 30.
Of course, my next bet is maple syrup. Sweet, sugary maple syrup.

"Miguel Cabrera -- a player the Twins pursued as a teenager" 250,000 was the difference between 96 wins and 102 the amount we would have won if we had ponied up the 250,000 to match the Marlins offer the worst thing is his family wanted him to sign with the Twins they liked us better. It makes me Cry at night.

"he just didn't want controversy and ended up answering a question poorly."

No, I think he did what we in the business call... LYING.

>I seriously doubt that Kenny Rogers is going to have an illegal substance on his hand in the World Series, especially not something that everyone can see with the naked eye.<

I seriously doubt Kent Hrbek lifted a well-muscled and resisting Ron Gant off first base in the World Series, using only his wrist and lower forearm. But darn if millions of people (many with functioning eyeballs) don't believe exactly that, even 15 years later.

Never underestimate Tim McCarver's ability to make something out of nothing. It's become kind of a Fall Classic tradition for him. Of course, it's not like Joe Buck to overreact--just ask Randy Moss. And it's not like either guy has any ties to the Tigers' opponent in this series, right?

I wonder if, without FOX's prominent role, anyone notices the chocolate cake on Kenny's hand at all? I really wish we could unring the bell and find out.

I guess I am a bit skeptical about Rogers this being the first time in his career where he has pitched lights out all of a sudden in his post season career. Twins didn't even want teh guy to start for them in the post season. I know he pitched well with out the substance on but I wonder if he had it on before in previous games. I'd like to believe baseball players don't cheat but coonsidering what has gone on the last few years I am highly skeptical.

Video shows that he had a similar substance on a similar place on his hand dating back to starts in July.

It is an interesting quandry and suprisingly very polarizing. The main beef I have is that the umps were not sent out to check the substance before Rogers washed it off. It surprises me to hear LaRussa knew about the substance and didn't send the umps to check it. At the very least, you avoid controversy by examining the substance. If it turns out to be illegal, you force the Tigers into using another starter, or forcing the relief pitchers into action, wearing out the bullpen. Seems like a win-win for the Cards and I am surprised that LaRussa, who knows firsthand how difficult it is to win the Series, would not ask the umps to check it out.

Whichever way one feels about the effects of pine tar (substitute steroids if you wish), the fact remains that using it is illegal. Like the Bonds situation, we may never know for sure whether Rogers was using pine tar, but if he was, there should have been ramifications.

Also, just because Rogers washed it off doesn't mean (1) he didn't have a similar substance somewhere else; or (2) the effects would still be somewhat attainable -- anyone who has tried to wash pine tree sap off their hands knows that the "dirt" can be gone but the hand still sticky.

It would explain a lot about Rogers' dominant pitching performance this year, extending through the postseason. All of that being said, I disagree with fans (mostly Yanks and As I have noted) who are outraged at the series loss to the Tigers, as if the Rogers pine-ball was the cause. Even assuming Rogers was cheating, he didn't get caught (see: corked bats, spitballs, etc.) and therefore it is irrelevant to games past. Add to that the 3-1 series loss by the Yanks and the 4-0 series loss by the As, and that still means that those teams were dominated by other starters as well. Let's face it, no amount of pitcher pine tar would explain the dismal performance of either team.

To sum, I believe there was pine tar on Kenny Rogers' hand in many games, including the postseason games. I believe that it provided him an advantage in those games. However, he was not caught, so tough noogies to those teams. I am surprised that the Cards did not do more to "catch" Rogers brown-handed, but that is their prerogative (though if I was a Cards fan I would be furious -- if someone uses an illegal stick in hockey, it must be pointed out to take away their advantage...same reasoning applies here). The only feeling I am left with from this situation (incident is a word that carries strong implications) is the hope that the series goes 6 games so we can see Rogers pitch again. If not, with apologies to writers of the Usual Suspects, "You think you can catch Kenny Rogers? You think a guy like that comes this close to getting fingered and sticks his head out? If he comes up for anything, it will be to get rid of me. After winning the World Series, my guess is you'll never hear from him again."

YankeeFan

I want to apologize to Todd Jones for calling him Doug.I did get the last name right,so all of you knew of whom I spoke. I still like John Nathan more.

This is not the first time Rogers has been accused of doctoring the ball.

I recall about 3 years ago, with Texas, opposing hitters complaining of a similar issue.

I know what it was...
http://tuesdayswithtorii.blogspot.com/2006/10/you-got-to-know-when-to-hold-it.html

Kenny Rogers is clearly a liar and a cheater. I bet he hangs out with Wesley Snipes. Mr. IRS agent... if you're reading this, I'd check out Mr. Rogers' recent returns!

Nearly 20 years ago, when La Russa and trusted pitching coach Dave Duncan were in Oakland, they strongly came to the defense of a former player, reliever Jay Howell, when Howell was busted for using pine tar.

"Even though that rule is against the use of a foreign substance," Duncan told the Los Angeles Times in a 1988 interview, "that part of it has been ignored. I think quite a few pitchers use it to assist with their grip. I didn't think anyone cared." --Drew Sharp, Detroit Free Press

"I also know that many pitchers — I was going to say, 'routinely,' but that may be too strong — use some sticky stuff to get a better grip, from the first throw in spring training to the last side in the World Series. Just because there's a little something that they're using to get a better grip, that doesn't cross the line." --Tony La Russa

"I don't think we got abused. I think we just got beat." --Tony La Russa

----------------------

From these and many other player/former player/coach/manager/baseball-people quotes, I think the picture is reasonably clear:

Many - perhaps most - ballplayers play with a little something sticky on their throwing hands, particularly when the weather is cold and/or wet. Pitchers, infielders, outfielders - it gives them a better grip on an otherwise very slippery ball.

Maybe technically against the rules, but it's so common nobody wants to make an issue of it. And it's apparently nothing new, and certainly not unique to Rogers.

That would certainly explain why La Russa chose not to make an issue of it or ask the umps to inspect Rogers. He knows damn well that his own pitchers/players are not squeaky clean and lily-white, and didn't want to open a can of worms that would hurt his own team as much as the Tigers.

Personally, I think it's all a tempest in a teapot, a mountain out of a molehill and much ado about nothing (choose your own cliche). Or maybe a part of the FOX campaign to get fans of other, non-competing teams to watch the rest of the Series. Hey, if Tommy Lasorda can't talk all the fans out of the trees and cupboards, maybe this'll do it.

Hmmm. . . . Tommy Lasorda, Tony La Russa . . . kinda sounds like a paisan connection. Whoa! A brand new conspiracy theory!

(Actually, that nitwit McCarver started the whole thing because he's still pissed of about popping out to Freehan to end the '68 World Series. I bet Lolich had a smudge on his hand back then, too. But knowing Lolich, if he did it was probably from a donut.)

Me, I'm just waiting to watch a baseball game, instead of the FOX/ESPN MLB version of the Jerry Springer show we've been subjected to for two days.

Sorry, but there is no way around it if he had pinetar on his hand like most think he did it is illegal. So what if others may have done it. So if some do steroids it is ok because others did it? No it isn't. It is cheating and there is no way around it. It would have been nice if Rogers would have let them find out what it is if it was not pine tar or any illegal substance then there would be no speculation. He didn't, so the suspician goes on imo.

Steroids vs. sticky stuff? Kinda like jaywalking vs. rape.

Everybody jaywalks.

Anyway, nothing anybody here thinks makes a whit of difference, in Game 2 or in the '51 Series (cheating was later admitted) or next season.

Personally, I'd bet a buck it was pine tar. And I don't care. If I cared about players having pine tar on their throwing hands, I wouldn't watch baseball. And if MLB came down hard and somehow made it impossible (I doubt they could even if they wanted to, which they don't), baseball wouldn't be the same game. Lots more errors, walks, hit batters, wild pitches, passed balls, easy steals . . . and scores in double digits.

Still baseball, but a different game. Anyway, I don't have enough righteous indignation in me to waste it on something this trivial.

I don't find cheating trivial. Which is what it is if he did indeed have pine tar on his hands. It is an illegal substance in baseball. If it wasn't there would be no talk about it at all.

How come, in the ads, LaSorda asks the wife of the guy in the tree, who is clearly wearing a Cubs shirt, "what's his team?". Is this all part of the dummy down philosophy that Fox embraces so fervently? Why does he need a megaphone to talk to a guy maybe 15 feet away? I think it is all part of the pine tar issue. You can get pine tar on your hands by handling pine cones, which are often used as halloween decorations.

Not to mention, if he's been in the tree since his team was eliminated from the postseason, hasn't he been up there for months?

Well, Nora, to be precise, pine tar isn't exactly "an illegal substance in baseball"; it's perfectly legal for batters to put on their bats. Which they all do. It's to improve their grip. Many have it gooped all over their helmets, and they all rub a tar rag over the handles of their bats before stepping into the batter's box. Pine tar is all over the place around a baseball field.

What the rule says is that it (and other substances) is not supposed to be used intentionally by pitchers (or fielders, for that matter) to affect the flight of the thrown ball. Which is interesting in the National League, where pitchers bat, because after they grip a tar-covered bat handle, they certainly do not go and wash their hands before going back out to pitch. (Though nearly everybody uses batting gloves these days, which would help keep the stuff off their hands.) Even in the AL, fielders use the tar rag, goop up their bats and helmets, and then take the field without a bath.

I'm not arguing that it isn't against the rules. I just don't care. And apparently, neither do MLB umpires or officials, unless there's a big stink made about it in some specific case. (Which wasn't done here, until long after there was any chance of proving anything, and even then, the only stink came from the media, not from the Cardinals or MLB.) And I can't see pinning a big target on Rogers over it, when the managers, umpires, umpire supervisor and other officials were complicit in what happened Sunday night: they all chose to let it slide, rather than jeopardize the integrity of the game.

I can see that some people want to take a zero-tolerance stance (and it's certainly a popular position these days) and say all infractions, regardless of how petty, are equally heinous. Some Cardinals fans want Rogers banned from baseball for life (if not executed by firing squad), the game forfeited to the Cards, the record book expunged, and Allah knows what else. But every official associated with MLB who was present at the time shares whatever guilt Rogers might bear, by implicitly (or explicitly, in the case of La Russa and the home umpire) saying "Let's not make an issue of it." And trying to make Rogers the fall guy would be (in my opinion) a level of hypocrisy and cowardice immensely worse than anything he might have done Sunday night.

Not to mention that everything is still a matter of "might have done" and not "did". So far, there have only been allegations, almost all by the media and fans, not by managers or officials, and mushrooming waves of hysterical hand wringing; nobody has proven anything. And won't be able to now, so long after the fact. So even the "all infractions of the rules are equally heinous and must be punished" attitude is moot: there's no proof Rogers broke any rule, and several statements from league officials that he didn't. And neither frenzied fans nor muckraking sportscasters run Major League Baseball.

Anyway, once again, for me, all the media hype and soap opera melodrama and fan frothing isn't nearly as entertaining as a baseball game. I just hope when Game 3 starts tonight Fox will actually put the cameras on the game, instead of endless replays of Sunday night and interviews with sports pundits.

This 'letting it slide' thing does jeopardize the integrity of the sport. I am not trying to say it is the same level as steroids but just about everybody tried to cover it up, which in the long run only makes it worse imo. The MLB needs to admit it their mistakes and move on but they choose to ignore it and turn the other way. The MLB officials etc. choose to look the other way which continues to let players do just about anything they want. The game would be more entertaining to me if there was no cheating.

Maybe it does jeopardize the itegrity of the sport. Somehow baseball has survived for 150 years, but maybe any day now the whole edifice of this multi-billiion dollar industry will come crashing down and nobody will play baseball anymore. Maybe the smudge on Rogers' hand was the final straw.

I have my doubts. A few decades ago, Gaylord Perry made a career of cheating, got caught several times, admitted it, wrote a book bragging about it, and got rewarded with a plaque in the Baseball Hall Of Fame. Baseball didn't crumble; the games go on; it's still baseball. My guess is it can also withstand a smudge on Rogers' hand.

But hey, I thought lowering the pitcher's mound, splitting the leagues into multiple divisions, introducing the designated hitter and having regular-season interleague play hurt the integrity of the game, and yet it still goes on, so what do I know?

It will go on but it won't take away the fact that it has been taken down a notch or 2 with cheating. I don't recall saying that the game wouldn't survive. It certainly doesn't help the reputation which has been stained. Mostly by the steroid issue.

BTW, I am a fan of baseball but I would enjoy it more if I knoew the game was played by the rules without illegal substances, etc. Is that so wrong? Don't think so.

I love when rationalizations go wrong. Horribly, monstrously wrong.

Quit trying to fit what Rogers did somewhere along a continuum of crime. It was an act that violated the rules of baseball, preiod.

Save your talk about the DH and the mound for some other discussion.

I don't know about anyone else, but I watch baseball to see the competition to see who has the advantage in the matchup between hitter and batter, and between teams. In doing so, I like to assume that each brings to that competition their talent, and maybe a bag of sunflower seeds. When a player tries to gain an edge in a matchup by operating outside the rules that have been listed for keeping this matchup one of talent v. talent, I don't like that. It makes a mockery out of the game, turning it into a "who can get the upper hand at any cost" circus. And we see the effect steroids had/has towards creating that atmosphere.

Am I naive? No, I know players will try and cut corners here and there. But where it is pretty gosh darn clear that someone thinks they can get an advantage beyond their God-given talent by breaking the rules, I'm pretty sure they aren't just cheating in the game, they are cheating the fans as well.

I'm an idiot. I meant between "pitcher and batter," obviously.

My darlings,

The tail end of these comments are beginning to become quite unpleasant. You must discuss respectfully, for Batgirl's soul withers with conflict. If you find yourself posting in anger, please go take a walk outside and contemplate the beauty and fragility of life.

Sadly,
Batgirl

On a totally unrelated topic...I can't get into the cave...I get this error.

We are investigating a problem with the server. Please check back for updates.

Estimated Completion Time: N/A

What does it all mean? *sob*

Thanks for stepping up, B.G., I was in a tither,or thereabouts. A tither is no place for me.

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