I want A vending Macheine for my basement that would be sweet I'd even keep some "Root beer" for Joe in it.

Dear Batgirl

You know and I know and everyone else knows Jeter is the true MVP, and I think both of your boys deserve votes too, but the fact that there are 2 of them on the same team shows that they aren't the MVP, which one is Joe or Justin ? Only one can be most valuable. If Jeter doesn't win, I think it should go to the Big Hurt.

Frank Thomas 2006 MVP? Man that felt weird to say.

p.e.m.

I'm sure Baby Jesus enjoys "The Tao of Health, Sex and Longevity" because of "it 'talks about diets and all that'" Mmm hmm.

When you have players like Giambi, Arod, Abreu, Damon on the team I think Jeter is not the only one on that team that has done well. Jeter has been good this year but I don't buy that since their are 2 candidates for MVP that the Twins don't have one. The Yankees lineup is full of talent also.

Here is another fun link:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca21.html

If I had a vote, I would give it the hunky canuck. But I don't and these awards are as much about history, rep and dues paid as the year they are having. Jeter has that over our soaring sophomore.

Thanks joe for that article. It just shows that the gods hate the bi**hsox. I live in Chicago right now and I cant stand all of the whining going on. I hope we sweep the sox in the finial 3 games even though it won’t matter if we win or lose…

Oh and I hope the Vikings win this week just to annoy Chicago even more.

Add to that Santana story one written by Phil Rogers discussing the starting pitching going into the playoffs:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=2594991

Isn't this fun? Damn, I love having a good team again!

To the writer of the sun-times article Deluca. Anyone can see it adds up to bad pitching in the rotation and bullpen. Their strength of last year became their weakness. Not sure why he thinks that the Sox are without problems this year. Funny stuff.

Here's another fun article for everyone. Mauer and Santana have named Justin as their MVP. Click my name for the link.

I love these complicated arguments the media trots out every year to decide the MVP.

For me, it's simple. Santana has been the best player in the league this year. If that doesn't make him the MVP, the award is worthless.

Batgirl can see arguments for a few players, including Santana and the Doctor. She thinks anyone who puts Jeter higher than fourth on their ballot should have their license revoked. He's a great player, but the layers on top of that are all hype. Were he playing for the Tigers, no one would be talking about him for MVP.

I would give it to Justin.
The Strib had a great quote the other day that without Justin, the Twins are a non- playoff team with a batting champ and a Cy Young.

Joe Christensen has a vote and is giving #1 to Justin, which I agree with. But he gives Jeter 4th and says that Mauer is as valuable to the Twins as Jeter is to the Yankees and that Jeter is all media hype...yet he puts Jeter on his ballot and not Mauer. Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't make sense. Seems like he's buying into the media hype.

Batgirl, those links were great!! I particularly liked the one by Reusse and the one from the Globe. It is so exciting being a Twins fan right now!

As far as the MVP goes, I believe Morneau is 100% deserving, and I think he will finish very high--even if he doesn't win. I think Jeter will win because of where he plays and, as you stated, the "hype."

As far as Santana goes, I can argue either way. I think folks have valid points about pitchers not getting it. HOWEVER, if you say that Santana only contributes once every five days you are smoking some stuff that should put you in jail! Hmmm, mentor to Liriano... Hmmm, worked with Silva on change-up... Hmmm, true stopper when Twins struggle. If you want to talk about intangibles, how many times has Santana taken us out of a skid only to get the whole team on fire?

I do think Morneau deserves it over Santana, but there are valid arguments on both sides. As far as Jeter goes, do people really think the Yankees would suck if it weren't for him? It all goes back to the popularity/hype contest, and we all know that NY has a lot of clout in contests like that.

Anyway, I love that we can argue stuff like this at all. The Twins have a Cy Young winner, and possible MVP, batting title, and division pennant within reach!! What could be better -- other than a double-NY sweep to win the WS!!

That article by Stark on Johan was really really nice to read. Good Gwynn, what if Johan did get the Quad Crown? Holy hell. I wouldn't know what to do with myself.

Thanks for the explanation about the Reusse article, BG; I had only seen the one that's on the Strib site now, and kept wondering what everyone else was talking about. Nice to see that Reusse, ever eager to be cynical and negative, had already bailed on the Twins with the score 2-1. What a guy you are, Patrick - always so life-affirming. As for Jeter being MVP, and "you and I and everyone else" knowing it, I think one could argue that position is seriously flawed. Mainly because it's wrong. Justin is it, folks. No Justin, no Twins in the playoffs. No Jeter, the Yankees probably still make it in. Simple.

Johan for sure will win the Quad. the award i feel is most deserved on the Twins, tho - & the one i haven't heard anyone mention - is Gardy getting the MOTY award. i know there will be an attempt to give it to Leyland, & true enough, it is something to take a team with a history like the Ligers & have them dominate for 90% of the season. but the Ligers are now showing their weknesses more than their strengths - especially since Polanco has been out. they are very much a one-dimensional team offensively - they cannot manufacture runs the way our piranhtas can. & that kind of thing you have to blame on management. & especially when your 10% of non-dominance occurs at the end of the season, jeapordizing the division title - well, that doesn't look good on the resume. no, if Gardy doesn't win it this year, well... i don't know what i'll do, really - but i'll be mighty pissed, & the world just won't seem fair. when you lose your entire outfield, your most veteran arm, your young gun, when you have to call up your entire AAA organization, & everytime you get bad news you go on a tear - in the end, you can only chalk that up to managing. fundementals, you might say? mananging. clubhouse chemistry? managing. keeping it loose, staying focused? managing. no way around it - this year we have witnessed the greatest display of managing in my baseball memory, at least.

Ah yes, the intangibles.

In other words, "even though I can't vote for him for MVP based on ANY conceivable objective measure because no matter what objective criteria I try to use, someone is more qualified than he is, I'm going to vote for him because I like him and he's Derek Jeter and he's a Yankee and he had to carry the team most of the year when he only had 4 future Hall of Famers playing regularly instead of 6 and how can any Minnesota Twin be more valuable when there are THREE Twins who have more objective qualifications for the award, which proves that Jeter is actually more valuable than any of them."

JimCrikket, rock on!! That made me laugh out loud.

Sweet! I have that same Puckett Wheaties box.

That Phil Rogers column was good, except for the part about Radke- "but is throwing in hopes of being the Curt Schilling of the 2006 playoffs". Whatever. Radke's retiring, and he's always been the type to want to give his all and help the team. Also, Schilling wasn't hurt for nearly as long as Radke has been.

Word to the Tigers...Look in your rearview, objects are closer than they appear! This is so much fun!
I'm new to the site.
Rene
(3rd generation Cubs fan)

JC, did you read the piece on Jeter's "intangibles", or did you just assume what it was about? It's actually a slam on his selfishness as far as him wanting to extend his hitting streak versus the team needing him to take a walk in a close game. It's far from what you're suggesting. (Not to say that what you're suggesting is in any way unfathomable, of course - there will be dozens of pundits echoing your words in all seriousness, sadly.)

The Lease

Here's the deal, they have no contract but they have been operating for x number of years on the same terms. For a contract you need 3 things, Offer, Acceptance and Consideration.

Consideration means both sides give/gain something. Twins gain the Metrodome, Dome Authority gains Twins fans in the seats.

If the Twins made an offer to continue the deal under the old contract, the Dome Authority could accept by acting in a way that a reasonable person would think "Hey, they want to continue with our agreement!"

They've done that.

If the Twins have said absolutely nothing then there might be a problem but they'd BOTH be manifesting (showing) their desire to continue the contract.

But the Vikings are whiny babies and people are nuts over them for some reason so who knows.

Dearest Mr. Man,

I think Mr. Crikket was responding to the idea of Jeter's intangibles, rather than the link. Batgirl believes what he is suggesting is pretty much right on.

Sincerely,
Batgirl

Lots of Yankee-bashing going on, which always brings me out of the woodwork...driving me batty...in a foul mood.

A couple of weeks ago I waxed poetic about the MVP candidacy of Derek Jeter...how he always comes through...how I could think of 10 games off the top of my head where he was directly responsible for the W...etc. After all that, I proposed Dye #1, Morneau #2 and Jeter a likely 3rd or 4th. I concede that as things stand today, Morneau would grab #1 on my ballot, with Dye third. Jeter, 4th. I like Santana for MVP as well, and I would put him second. Stark is right that pitchers could only be MVPs in extraordinary seasons. Just because Randy Johnson didn't win one during 1995 doesn't mean that Santana isn't having an unreal season. I mean, the Quad?

In any event, it sounds like we all agree, except many are awarding Jeter the MVP in their minds and are starting the bitterness early. Relax, he hasn't won yet, and all indications outside New York are that he won't win. Hell, most of the indications within New York are more "it would be great if he won, but he's not the MVP." At least from where I am sitting.

As for the piece on Jeter and the hitting streak, it would be incredibly difficult to believe that after almost 10 full seasons of unselfish behavior, Jeter was thinking about himself instead of the team during that at-bat. Hell, I can think of an at-bat this year where Jeter fouled a pitch into the stands, injured someone, and could barely concentrate on the rest of the at-bat because he was preoccupied with the injured person...stepped out, looked over, stepped in...etc. until he struck out. Jeter overhyped? Yeah. Gets the Favre/Madden treatment from pseudo-wannabe-baseball announcers such as McCarver and Buck? Absolutely. (Believe me, it makes me convulse in a much more violent fashion than it does you). But to mount "evidence" that he cared about the hitting streak more than the team is preposterous. It is even more ridiculous when you consider that for Jeter to get into the record books he would need to more than double his pending hitting streak, but a walk would be much better than an out for the batting race, which would put him in the books. If he were truly being selfish, the batting title would have been (and still would be) on his mind (or perhaps that is what the "Jeter is selfish" argument would have been if he had taken a walk). Please. Absolute rubbish.

People sometimes like to tear down the frontrunner. I can accept that. I don't defend Alex Rodriguez much because it's easier for people to feel good bashing someone, dragging them down rather than elevating themselves. What I like about the Twins is that at some point they sat down and said "We will not drag others down to feel better than them. Instead, we shall elevate our play above theirs." And they have.

The Twins are the only team in the AL that frightens me...and moreso in a 5 game series than a 7. I believe that Detroit will lose to the Yanks in 4 in the ALDS, with the Twins besting the As in 3, setting up a favorable matchup for the Twins in the ALCS that will require 7 to resolve...if Radke pitches. If not, it's Yanks in 6.

Just happy to be in the position I am in. Loving baseball. Going back and forth with the Red Sox until that 5 game series then pulling in front. Watching everyone write off the Yanks and Twins in early June and cross my fingers that both will win their respective decisions. Watching 4 solo home runs hit back-to-back-to-back-to-back to tie a ballgame in the bottom of the ninth, then a 2 run shot in the 10th to required to win by a run. Baseball is just unbelievable. The NL wild card race is insane.

This is why they play the game. More importantly, this is why we watch. Stop the bitterness for a second and enjoy it.

See you in the ALCS,
YankeeFan

adidasman, I read the Jeter piece but my post was actually more aimed at the "intangibles" argument that spews from so many "experts" lately.

In fact, with regard to the linked piece, I actually disagree with the premise of the writer to a degree. He accuses Jeter of swinging at a potential ball 4 instead of taking a walk merely in order to keep his streak alive. I don't know Jeter. I don't know how selfish he is. Maybe the premise is 100% on the nose.

But... if the situation was as described... runner on second (assuming 1B open) and 1 out, 2 run lead in the 7th... then I could make a case for him going ahead and swinging at a marginal pitch in the hopes of getting an RBI single rather than just accepting a walk that sets up a potential inning-ending DP. In that situation, sometimes I want my best hitter taking his cut rather than walking and leaving it to the next guy to try to drive in the run.

No, I'm not comfortable defending Jeter or anything of the sort... just saying that particular situation has two sides to it.

May the record reflect that YankeeFan is totally cool.

I second that, FH.

I also would like to add my angry snorting and pawing the ground to the herd that's ready to trample the Vikings. Let's flip the situation around, just for fun. Wha would the Vikings say if they'd made the playoffs and someone wanted to use the stadium on the same day?

I think I can guess. So shut up, Vikings. This time belongs to the Twins, and your season will take a backseat until ours has come to its glorious finish.

I love baseball. This is a joyous ride, is it not? I'm taking a timeout from all the awards chat (and believe me, I've been chatting about it all day to anyone who will listen) to just bask. Mmmmmmmmmmmm.

YF, I think your point about how Jeter would have been acting MORE selfishly by taking the meaningles walk in order to keep his BA up is pretty valid. As I said (about a minute after your post), I could make a good argument that he was stepping up rather than being selfish. Of course, there's also always just the possibility that he got fooled a bit or just missed the sweetspot by 1/2 of an inch when he swung. It happens.

I have no bitterness toward YF (or many other Yankee fans), but only toward those writers (especially those with votes) who, being confounded by an inability to come up with an objective measurement to support their vote for Jeter, simply play the "intangibles" card as if that's somehow a legitimate criteria.

JC

Hey YankeeFan, thanks for the understanding. It's good to have you here.

Two comments on the Stark article:

1) In his long analysis of the Pitching Triple (or Quad) Crown achievers, he didn't mention that Santana will probably win the Triple Crown for the MAJORS, not just the AL. (maybe the Quad for the majors too, he trails Bronson Arroyo by 6 IPs)

2) He failed to mention that voters tend to look to pitchers when there are no hitters having fantastic years. There is no obvious hitter to put in #1 (the good doctor withstanding) so more people will look to Santana (IMHO).

Don't miss "10 Days that Shook the Dome" at CityPages, either.

Though I have used up my allowable quota of words on the BG site today and likely risk a ban posting more, I agree JC. It irks me to no end (as a baseball fan primarily but as a YankeeFan as well) when stupidity masks for analysis. I hated it when Palmiero won the gold glove after playing 19 games at first base (literally robbing Tino "the Analyst" Martinez) and I would hate it if Jeter won the MVP this year. In my opinion, even with the lunacy prevelant in today's game, he should receive no higher than second place votes (i.e., anyone who has him listed first should be dismembered), and finish no better than third overall (though that in itself would be a testament to people not wanting to give Santana the MVP).

I didn't understand Stark's Quad point. The last guy who did it in the AL faced fewer big hitters (they apparently were all at war) and won the MVP? Sounds right to me. In this day (with players belting 60, 50, 40, 30+ home runs) and league, it is amazing that Santana is even coming close to the numbers he is putting up. Pedro nearly missed being the MVP in '99 (and may have deserved it, too - like Santana, did anyone want to face that guy that year?) and didn't put up the Quad. And yes, you've figured it out, I like saying Quad.

Thanks for the love, guys, but I am not A-Rod, so it is not necessary :) (thought you'd like that one). Give the love where it rightfully belongs, on the shoulders of BatGirl and the Twins.

Oh, and kick ass tonight. I want to see Schilling bleeding from his socks... :)

YF

following Pab's lead, two comments on the Stark article:

1) In his long analysis of why Santana shouldn't win the MVP, he mainly uses arguments of why he "won't" win the MVP. For example, comparing him to Randy Johnson in 1995, and saying "well, Randy didn't win in 1995, so neither should Santana in 2006". Just because people have always acted a certain way, DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE CORRECT TO DO SO. Predicting that Santana won't win the MVP this year based on the history of the award showing that pitchers never win is entirely different than saying that he shouldn't win b/c pitchers never win.

2)Stark's only actual argument as to why Santana should not be MVP is that position players are more valuable than pitchers b/c they play everyday. First off, let me say that Santana has already faced hundreds more batters (879+) than any hitter will have at bats. Secondly, I would like to point out that pitching and defense win championships. Finally, if you use some of the more advanced stats, (Win Shares, VORP, WARP3), you can actually get an idea of how valuable Santana is in relation to position players. I'm not trying to argue that Santana should be MVP, but I am arguing that saying "oh, well, Santana isn't as valuable as whomever b/c he doesn't play everyday" is a stupid argument, and one that isn't true. Santana is more valuable than a lot of position players, because of how good he is every fifth day. So if you're going to argue he shouldn't be MVP, that's fine. But please do it intelligently. Don't fall back on the "he's not a position player" crap. Because he's more valuable than pretty much every frickin position player in baseball.

/rant

A question to think about when talking about the MVP:

Is there a player that the Twins would trade Johan Santana?

I believe the answer to be not one player. If you ask that same question about Derek Jeter, David Ortiz, or Jermaine Dye, the answer is probably a list of 3-5 players with Johan Santana being at the top of the list.

Now ask that question about Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau. I don't know the answer to that.

I think that if you're talking about value, there is no one player, pitcher or other, that is worthy of being traded for Santana.

Therefore, he is the most valuable player in the league.

Ditto, Kaiser. "Diets" my ass. I bet that's what he and his "friend" talk about when she's in town. Very amusing article though.

Perhaps nothing would put this season in context like turning to KFAN and hearing Dan Barreiro -- a man I've nicknamed "Mr Negativity" -- singing their praises, arguing unabashedly that they were the most distinguished team in any sport, at any level, in the last quarter century of Minnesota sports, when you consider just the regular season performance.

While arguing with Vikings fans, he wondered if distinguished was the right word. Dan, the word you were looking for is "inspiring."

I'm not going to stand up for him too much, but I read J. Stark all the time and the man's a number/history cruncher. His article is a counterpoint to others who have praised Santana's worthiness, and I believe he is more trying to predict how voters will vote than condemn the candidacy.
But the AL MVP is a strange race this year. No one on any of the contenders is even the clear choice for his team's MVP, with the possible exception of Thomas. The numbers for the players themselves aren't likely going to get all out of control this last week, which means the teams of the players in contention probably have a lot more say left than the players themselves. Funny how that works out.

Baltimore just took the lead over Detroit in the bottom of the 8th! First place is three outs away!

I don't know about MVP for the year, but the MVP of the day just may be Melvin Mora for that late-inning double versus the Tiggers.

BG, might you consider "Baby Melvin" as a working title rather than "Baby Boof"?

Respectfully,

tgd

anyone remember the pedro martinez/mvp controversy centered around our very own lavelle neal THE THIRD? does lavelly get another fifteen minutes of fame?

First place is now in the Twinks hands! Yea! Let's keep it for longer than 3 hours.

Orioles 4, Tigers 3. Say it with me one time: "The division leading Minnesota Twins..." Doesn't that feel good?

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet - but the good doctor needs your support:

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/story?page=mvptracker060912&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos2

TBird, your analysis is right on. I don't necessarily have a problem if the MVP is restricted by rule to position players. Obviously, it's easier to compare position players to each other than position players to pitchers, and pitchers have an award for which only they are eligible. But no position player has the impact a great starting pitcher can, even if the position player plays five of those five games.

Kurtis, Barreiro is pretty close. I could also make a case for the 2003 St. John's University football team (that season was positively magical for so many reasons), but you'd probably have to combine the postseason to match the Twins' regular season thus far.

Does anyone else hate it when the mass media notices the Twins? Every time they do, something bad happens. So long as the media is writing them off, they're fine. Once the national articles/tv happens, they lose, and usually painfully.

Hopefully they'll be the underdogs in the playoffs. That's at least one reason to hope for the Yankees first. We all know that the mass media will focus mainly on the Yanks

Though no one will read this, I will add that JC was, indeed, spot on it what he said - I did not mean to suggest otherwise, just that his comments had nothing really to do with the article. And I will also state that YF is right about our being a tad bitter, but he should also know that it usually goes that way when you're a Twins fan; your guys rarely get the accolades afforded the guys in the big markets, unless it's just completely and utterly unavoidable (see "Santana, Johan"). And YF is also very right in his analysis of why it makes no sense for Jeter to have swung in an attempt to extend the hitting streak - it was just my Yankee-despising instincts that made me all too ready to agree with the writer of that piece. Jeter has, despite his unfortunate affiliation with that team in the Northeast, always seemed to be a consummate ballplayer and a pretty OK guy. (That doesn't make him MVP, though, and it's clear we all agree on that.)

May I just say that the consistently high level of intelligence, creativity, and mutual understanding on this site continues to astound me. It's a privilege to be a part of this little community - it truly is.

Hey adidasman - thought I'd let you know that someone did indeed read your comment. ;-)

Setting aside, for a moment, the issues of who ought to win the MVP, I'd like to add my two cents on issues of Jeter-bashing, which seems, these days, to go hand-in-hand with Yankees-bashing.

I'm a Yankees fan, and I understand the desire of a lot of fans of other clubs to condemn the team. It's frustrating to see a club with a lot of resources return to the playoffs year after year: it's a very clear-cut, Hollywood version of good versus evil, with the Yankees very neatly fitting the role of "evil."

What Derek Jeter might do is throw a wrench into that nice little paradigm because he does not appear to meet the description of "evil."

It's relatively easy to look at most of the other individuals on the team and find some way to cast them as the Hollywood heavy (and this is just as Hollywood as Hollywood gets: we won't meet these players, we only get to experience them on a public stage): you could easily cast them as mercenaries (Rodriguez, Sheffield, Damon), cheaters (Giambi), intimidators (Rivera), snooty over-educated prima donnas (Mussina), or, God forbid, foreigners (Posada, Matsui, Torre).

These labels might be unfair, untrue or and reprehensible, depending, but they all do fit the entertainment universe. But Jeter doesn't really fit any of them. By all accounts he seems to be respectful, playful, and team-oriented; not to mention handsome. He's respected by almost all baseball people, at least in public. And in an era where the sport is in desperate need to distance itself from the image of the bloated slugger, he's the antithesis of that.

In all, he's a guy you would find it hard to truly hate. And yet there he is as the face of the Yankees (even moreso this year with his MVP candidacy). I think this makes Yankee-haters uncomfortable.

There was a short period there, when the Yanks were winning the Series from 1996 to 2000, when it seemed like the whole team was like this. That 1998 team was generally regarded as bland, likable, very much not in the Yankee mold. But this current Yankees team is not that way. It's made up of individually "hatable" players. And in that context, Derek Jeter seems to be a hurdle to be cleared or removed so that the bulk of the country can just get back to "hating the Yankees" like in the good ol' days.

Hey, Morneau just passed Jeter in the AL MVP Tracker on ESPN.com! Just goes to show what going 5-for-5 at Fenway can do for your name recognition.