I think I speak for many a Batling when I say:

Oh, for f*ck's sake.

This really sucks. Thome kills us, and I was afraid if we didn't get him, he'd end up with the bitches. What a bummer.

chacarron, kat.

I consider this a good thing. A quality center fielder (both offensively and defensively) leaves in favor of an aging, oft-injured DH. They also use up some payroll room in a trade that I think hurts them. Especially if it means no Konerko.

Although, there's at least one way this can go terribly, terribly wrong.

Does this mean Frank Thomas is gone from the Chi Sox ?
Would the Twins have any use for the Big Hurt ?

Dear Mr. Boi,

Which way?

Curiously,
BG

Well put, Kat.

Yes neut, please elaborate.

And Mike - Frank's on the loose. But what would we do with him? He's old, crabby and breakable.

[I just realized there's a whole new meaning to Big Hurt, since he always is.]

Perhaps Batgirl is just conservative in nature, but she is inclined to agree with Mr. Boi, (and the well-spoken Ms. Harriet). Make no mistake, she wanted Thome, but not badly enough to give up someone like Rowand for him on account of his most-breakable nature.

That said, Batgirl is not happy to have him on any team in our division again, on account of the massive amount of hurt he lays down upon our buttocks.

Dear BG & Say Rah!

The Bitch Sox need a new CF. Jacques Jones can play CF. He's probably in their price range.

*gasp*

For the love of Tony Gwynn, please no! Don't play for them, Jacque!

Dear Mr. Boi,

MY EYES! MY EYES!

Sincerely,
BG

The Phils are eating 8 mil/year, the Sox are loaded with outfield prospects that should be better than Rowand. Brian Anderson will probably get the first opportunity to replace Rowand, and he is a better defender. He should have no problem replacing Rowand's strikeouts and GIDPs.

Dear Mr/Ms X,

Interesting. Weren't they really high on Rowand's defense though?

It's an object lesson for us--we want a bat, it's going to hurt.

I wonder if this means they're expecting to lose Paulie.

Curiously,
BG

Dear Batgirl

I would take this trade as a sign that they may not be able to keep Paul Konerko. But if you could get a 16 million dollar player for 8 million I think you would too.

I'm surprised the Phillies didn't get any pitching out of this deal.

mike

Dear Mr. Mike,

Yes, I suppose I would. Mostly, I'm just bitter. As you have not followed the Twins over the years, you cannot know the depths of the pain he has inflicted on us in the past, nor the zenith of joy many of us felt when we left the league.

Sincerely,
BG

Many painful memories, BG, but this is not the same Jim Thome that inflicted so much damage as a Wahoo. George Brett used to bang up the Twins too, but I wouldnt be too concerned if he signed with the Bitches right now either.

I don't think it necessarily means Konerko is gone, unfortunately. Merely that with no Everett and Thomas, they looked around for someone who MIGHT be able to help out with a bat.

If this is the only "big" deal the Bitches make this off season, I won't be too upset. I don't see where it improves them all that much, considering who all they're losing. And if the happen to also lose Konerko, terrific.

I agree, though, with BG on the "object lessen". If this is the going rate for someone who MIGHT still have some power in his bat, we need to be prepared to swallow a steep price for anything we think will really improve the Twins lineup as well.

UGH--this trade hurts...

Bitch Sox will probably move speedy Podsednik to CF and stick somebody in left who can hit better than Rowand...if they resign Konerko the lineup is much better...Thome becomes DH.

One thing to remember the Thome that hurt the Twins didnt bat against the Johan Santana who has been the best pitcher in the AL the past 2 years. He is also several years older than he was with the Tribe...

The Phils are getting some pitching. They are getting, arguably, the top two lefties in the sox' minor league system. Neither is major league ready, but both could excel.

There is a better chance that they won't resign Thomas. Thomas, Everett, and Rowand cost about 18mil last year. That's more than enough to reinvest in Konerko if they wanted.

They are high on Rowand's defense, but there will be a logjam in their outfield in the coming years. Anderson, Sweeney, Young, and Owens all figure to be ready before '08. Rowand was the most expendable. They were also pretty high on Jeremy Reed, but they didn't hesitate in trading him.

Dear Mr./Ms X,

Interesting. Thank you.

Sincerely,
BG

Well, I *wanted* to send Big Jim your way.

From a Twins standpoint, I think this helps or hurts you depending on whether or not the BS also re-sign Konerko. The two guys together are probably good for 80 HR or so. If Thome's the replacement for Konerko, that's obviously a different story. It's pretty dangerous to have so much of the offense tied up in one aging guy with chronic health concerns, even if he can DH.

FWIW, I think he's going to have a big 2006 (then again, I thought he'd win an MVP for the Phils this past year, based on the power show I saw him put on in Florida last March), but will decline thereafter. The upside here for the Twins (and the Indians, and the Tigers if you're of a mind to take them seriously) is that the Sox lost one of their signature players in Rowand--though his numbers don't impress me, the "intangibles" effect of parting with a "Smartball" stalwart could damage them--and two very promising lefty starter prospects. I don't see the Sox starters all representing as they did in '05; if/when one or more of their guys falters or gets hurt, they might miss that depth next year and beyond.

As a Phillies phan I'm pleased with the trade, mostly because we save considerable money and restock a farm system our previous crappy GM had decimated to feed his mid-30s relief pitcher addiction. I wonder how much Pohlad's characteristic tight-assery hurt Ryan on this one.

Thome will replace the Big Hurt on the DL, er I mean as the DH. Be glad the Chi Sox traded away their everyday CFer for a guy who can't stay off of the DL and is way past his prime. I see this is a plus for Twinkees fans.

Funny. They talk about how important Rowand is to the team, then trade him for Thome?

So who takes outfield in place of the supposed Gold Glover? I mean a player so valuable must be pretty hard to replace right?

PS: Am I the only one that's beginning to get Yankees v. Red Sox vibes from Chicago? Of course, it's the Bitches who are playing the role of the team that signs their enemies potential new player...while we just sit here going "Um, it has to go both ways to be a Boston/NY thing."

Can the Sox sign Paulie after this? I wouldn't think so. I liked the replace Thomas on the DL er...DH line although I would never want to wish injury on a guy like Thome who seems like a stand up guy.

I think there is a chance that this ends the Sox playing Twins ball though.

Regardless, looks like another winter where every other team is making news and the Twins... cue the crickets.

And for shame even putting out there the idea of JJ playing center for the BS! It's bad enough that we are losing him. Can you imagen. AJ, then JJ, and why not Dougie baseball as back up 1B. Maybe they can sign Matt Lawton too. He's a FA after all.

Mike, in terms of whether Frank Thomas could become a Twin, Terry Ryan was on KFAN this afternoon, and when Hartman asked the same question, TR said in no uncertain terms that Thomas would not 'fit in' with the Twins plans...

After Magglio, few teams will be looking to spend too much on Big Hurt. The Sox will re-sign him, $2.85mil guarenteed, up to $5mil for 2006 with health-laden incentives. Paulie is gone, with Delgad to the Mets I'm betting he's off to Anaheim, who will move Erstad to CF again and end up with great defense at each spot and another underpowered DH.

Overall this trade is good for both teams. Phils pick up a steady semi-young world series hero of a CF, get a 1st basemen without losing face for ditching Thome thanks to Howard's breakout season, and ditching 22 mil in payroll over 3 years. Sox pick up a power bat they've needed, stability at 1st base in an off-season that has provided anything but, and an audition at LF (Pods moves to CF) for one of many farm system OFs who will try to wow people at Spring Training the way Brandon McCarthy (who will be the 5th starter next season) did last spring. It'll happen. If needed, Ross Gload will take over defensively at first. He can provide a .290/18/70 line, which would be fine for the #8 spot in the lineup he'd probably occupy, and he's decent defensively. Workable, until a mid-season trade.

That's all objective, though.

Subjectively, as a White Sox fan?

I'm crying like a baby.

Sure, Rowand's value peaked after he shut down the Yankees late in the year. His projected 20HR and 85RBI didn't materialize. He's already past the golden age of 27. He won't go on roids and have "magic" seasons like a lot of suspicious power hitters. He'll probably break something major charging into a fence chasing after a ball. His defense isn't actually as good as Brian Anderson's.

But to lose his hustle, his charm, his sense of gamesmanship, the memory of his clutch hits...it's very hard on me. Especially knowing we're picking up a 1st basemen who will likely challenge Frank Thomas' team record of most DL trips...it's very very rough, and I'm emotional now. Sniffle.

No, we're not picking up Jacque Jones, if anything we'd trade YOU an OF for minor league pitching talent. We have great position depth in the minors, and I'm especially high on Leo Daigle, who could easily become the next Ryan Howard (he pretty much was a quintuple-crown winner at single-A this year, it's a start). Pitching? Well, we traded our's away, and our triple-A pitching WAS McCarthy. Sooo, we're in the market, and you can expect Williams to make some minor league moves to secure the next Garland, Buehrle, or McCarthy.

Y'know, a lot of people talk about Konerko as being the captain and barometer of the Sox. I disagree. It's Casper Buehrle. Konerko's the hero, Buehrle's the reason Konerko was in the position to be the hero.

So, in conclusion...how bout them Twins? Heh :)

-Pander
The "Holy Shnikies What is Kenny Williams Doing Oh Well He Won it For Us I Better Trust Him no Matter HOW Painful His Moves Are" White Sox Fan

Leo Daigle is a career minor leaguer. He's also a 6 year free agent, so I don't know how he can be the next Ryan Howard, especially since Daigle is older than Howard.

I don't see how getting Thome means the sox can't play twins' ball. They still have Podsednik and Iguchi, and they're still 6 deep in starting pitchers. Their bullpen should still be respectable too.

The whole Yankees/Red Sox comparison applies to the sox, but their main rival is probably the indians after what happened last year.

My dream of Thome in a Twins uniform is shattered.

Damn...

Damn, Damn...

I'm so confused...

it's one solution to the ass bats problem. Get the White Sox to trade for the biggest ass bat of them all.

Thome's done, chicago have been done, and when all's said and done the winner is...

the twins

D

You sound mighty confident there, Dan ;-)

I do enjoy how Twins/Bitches is like Yanks/Bosox Central; for instance, right at the top of the page at blackbetsy.com, it says "MINNESOTA TWINS DELENDA EST". Them's fightin' words! However, atx brings up a good point about how everyone's ignoring Cleveland. There's a good chance that they'll be even better in 2006.

And jeffstoned mentioned the Tigers, who have hired Jimmy Leyland to manage. The Pirates were a joke and he led them to 3 straight NL East titles. The Marlins were a joke and they won the WS in his first year at their helm... ok, he managed Colorado for a season during which they only played .444 ball but still, Leyland can make winners out of Les Tigres... eventually.

And the Royals... oh, the poor Royals.

Whatever happens, it's bound to be a fun race to watch.

whoops, sorry, that's http://www.blackbetsy.blogspot.com/

Batlings, fear not. The real Kenny Williams has stood up. Sure, he played a genius in 2004 and 2005, but now he's traded Aaron "ishouldhaveagoldglovebutidontforsomereason" Rowand and two excellent left handed pitching prospects for an old first baseman.

This trade doesn't help the Sox for 2006, and hurts the team significantly down the road. The Twins' road is open.

Thome's old and hurt, and expensive. I'm just crossing my fingers and hoping the Twins move in with an offer of Baker and Liriano for Thome.

BTW- I don't know if you guys have read this article (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2232133) yet but the great and powerful Stark has pointed out that every team but the Yankees and Red Sox is exempt from the luxury tax in 2006, due to a clause thrown into the Basic Agreement when it was written in 2002.

Can the Bitch Sox afford both Thome AND Konerko? I don't know for sure but that development makes it seem kind of likely.

Fear not, Twinkie fans, Jacque Jones won't be in CF for the WORLD SERIES CHAMPION WHITE SOX come the spring.

Torii Hunter, now, that's another story......

Dear Mr. Cracker,

Don't make me come over there.

Sincerely,
BG

In regards to Thome, we should be OK, unless the Twins pull Rick Reed out of retirement. :-)

This is all just fine. Let the Sox make the splashy moves and go into the season as the favorites. Let them and their fans talk smack. This will retore the natural order of things. The Twins seem to succeed under those circumstances. Last year was the anomoly when the Twins were actually favored on paper, and look how that turned out.

Also, I would say that it's a bit early to be judging any team's offseason moves. There is a lot of offseason left and the Twins are sure to do something. It might not be something as sensational as trading a cornerstone player for an expensive slugger with questionable health, but it will be something and it might even be something good. So, let us wait.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5111062

At least one talking head thinks the BS made a mistake in the Thome deal.

I was born a White Sox fan and will die a White Sox fan. We would not have won the WS again with the same team-- period. We are (obviously) not the '27 Yanks. We had career years from way too many guys (most notably 1/2 the pitching staff) to repeat as is. Dye was a major gamble last season that paid off rather well, so were AJ, Iguchi, and El Duque (those three outs were worth his entire salary). I really don't like the Thome trade and I think it will end up a wash, but what's for certain is that we don't repeat with the same team. There's a certain desperation in KW's moves-- always has been. At least he's intelligent enough to realize that we can't stand still.

Wild card comes from the central next year. It will be a very interesting three-team race if our rivals from the north can find a bat. Until last year, they always managed to.

Ok. So I was at work last week at the shopping mall. Ron Gardenhire and his lovely bride walk by the kiosk I work in. I greet him by saying, "HOLY CRAP! YOU'RE RON GARDENHIRE!" He then told me he was doing a little early Christmas shopping, but also said that they're going to get those White Sox next season. I believe in everything that is holy that Gardy won't let me down.

Patty, you're getting paid to sell to him, not him selling to you, :>).

Hey interesting tidbit: the Chairman was on channel 4 sports sitting court side at the Gophers game with some "lovely ladies". Does Batgirl know her boyfriend is off gallivanting with women?

okay i'm so confused so jacque jones isnt on the roster anymore?? cause i cant find him!!! i'm soooo confused please help me!!

He's a free agent, Dani. He can make a deal with any team. While that includes the Twins, the general consensus is that some other team will be likely to pay him more than what the Twins would be able to afford for next year.

I think, long term, the Sox got jobbed. Short term -- especially if they're able to let him DH -- Thome is probably still a very dangerous lefty who, even in decline, may have just become the most dangerous hitter in the division. At 9 mil, he's a steal, at least for next year, if he plays 135-145 games.

As far as Konerko's chances to go back to Chicago, I had sort of written that off before this even happened, but I might actually be rooting for it: In two years, they'll likely have two DHs who don't hit well enough for the position, both signed till kindgom come. Meanwhile in Minnesota, Mauer is just rounding into his prime and Santana would still be in his. A long-term deal for Konerko could cripple a club like the Chicago, which likes to cry wolf -- ahem, poverty.

Just saying.

Jim,

There's also the fact that paying Jones a heckuva lot more than what he's already making is tantamount to throwing money into the toilet.

If he plays 135 games or more seems like a big IF going by Thome recent health.

As a sox fan I have to say this trade reminds me of the Pods for Lee trade last year.
Pods had a terrible year during the 2004 season so KW took the chance on him and it worked out. We have so many outfielder prospects and Rowand is going to be excatly what he was last season for the rest of his career, so he was expendable. We gave up our two best pitching prospects in order for the phillies to pay for over half of Thome's contract so we could still have a chance of signing Konerko.

Well, the thing is, I'll glad trade an uncertain future for the chance at another championship next year. It's sort of the process that's been going on since 2002 for the Sox, every year we trade and sign a bit more and a bit more until it culminated in last year's squad, with really no wasted players on the 25 man roster. No "man, that guy's crap" on the entire roster. If extending the process is what it takes until we, like the Yankees have emptied our farm system and knocked out our apparent prospects for a while in exchange for more world championships, it is a fair price to pay. And I'd be willing to pay it.

Feel free to continue to bank on 2008 and 2009, I'm liking 2006 and 2007, and hoping they'll be as good as 2005.

"If extending the process is what it takes until we, like the Yankees have emptied our farm system and knocked out our apparent prospects for a while in exchange for more world championships, it is a fair price to pay. And I'd be willing to pay it."
--Pander

So, how's that been going for the Yankees in the past five years?

Just sayin'. It's an awful lot of risk. And one of these days, the Yankees are going to have to go back to the dark ages because the team they've built is old and overpriced and they've got little hope of rebuilding from within. So be careful what you wish for.

OK, so, two clarifications here, and a Sox fan take...

1. People here are talking about how Thome is always hurt, which is highly inaccurate. If you look at his career before 2005, he has been remarkably healthy. His elbow injury in 2005 was an exception - he played full seasons for 10 years straight before that. That's why he is probably worth the gamble.

2. As far as the Sox being able to afford Konerko now, that is not an issue. When all is done with releasing Everett and Thomas (and soon, Perez), trading Rowand, Hermanson spending the year in rehab from surgery (so says a little bird), and getting the offset cash from Philly, the Sox have plenty of salary room to use. The question is more a matter of KW in a bidding war with LAAAAAAA - KW will only go so far, from a value perspective.

As a Sox fan, as much as I love Rowand, this was a strong deal. If the Sox re-sign Paulie (and putting Anderson or Owens in CF), their lineup is significantly better than 2005, and they have lost only a shade on defense in CF (and in fact improved in arm strength).

Dear Sox Fans.

Your perspective on this is very interesting. Thank you.

Sincerely,
BG

Basically, this trade was a Kenny Williams signature move. The reason I like him so much is that he has the cahones to pull the trigger (or pursue) a deal like this. He has shown his gambler attitude by taking chances on aging stars, some of which paid off... some of which failed (David Wells, Orlando Hernandez, Jose Contreres, Billy Koch). But there is absolutely no reason Jim Thome couldn't hit .300 with 30-40 HRs and 100+ RBIs next year and the Sox needed him if anything as insurance. It's funny how one season on the DL makes a guy 'injury prone'. If Konerko resigns, this would make a very formidable 1-2 punch in the middle of the lineup. And Konerko will get even better pitches to hit with Thome hitting behind him.

One last note is that I'm pretty sure Phillies GM Pat Gillick had very few choices as to how to trade Thome. He has a no trade clause and was really only willing to go to 1 of 3 teams: 1) The Cubs, but they already have Derek Lee; 2) The Indians, Thome has said that he loves the Cleveland area and enjoyed his tenure there earlier in his career; 3) The White Sox, he is a Peoria, IL native. So I hate to dissapoint the Twinkies, but there was virtually no chance of him coming to Minnesota. Think about it: Halfner, Thome or Konerko, Thome.... which is worse?

On the "that guy is crap" front from this year's Sox, I nominate Juan Uribe, who was, in fact, crap. And on the "that guy is crappier than you think" front, I would like to name Scott Podsednik. When the Sox win 85 games with him in center next year, good luck finding the clothes you thought he was wearing.

No way. Uribe's hitting is down, but look at the transformation defensively from Jose Valentin to Juan Uribe. Screw ballpark, it ain't even in the same solar system. Uribe's almost like a classic shortstop in terms of defense (good hands, arm like a cannon), but he's got pop. Did he hit like in the first half of 2004? No, but for a bottom of the lineup hitter, he's hitting all anyone could ever hope for, given his age, position, and price tag.

And Podsednik...there'll always be different schools of thought about whether he's worth his value or not. Whether a better slugging% or OBP% leadoff hitter would more than make up for 60 steals. Hard to say, sometimes people listen to numbers more than game impact (A-Rod his an asston of homeruns last year, but 3-run shots in a 14-5 game aren't worth crap). A steal threat throwing off a pitcher's timing, giving the next guy (Tad Iguchi, who Chicago is entirely sold on) a better pitching sequence to hit with. A motivator who can set a tone. Look at our first-inning statistics. If you score in the first inning, you've got some great odds of winning the game, and we just PUMMELED teams in the first inning last year. S'one of the reasons we had such a huge streak of "games we've had the lead in" at the start of the year.

Yeah, Pods really fell off the steals map after that injury, but you can't say he wasn't worth anything. At least, you can't look at the two home runs he hit in the post-season, and tell me that with a straight face.

Worth. Every. Penny.

Oh, and by the way, ask yourself this. "Would I rather have Luis Rivas, or Juan Uribe?" If you say Rivas, then I can't save you from home team bias.

I'll go down the list of players I'd rather have, position by position, sox vs. twins.

Catcher: AJ. You'd pick him too, you know it in that deep dark place in your heart. (okay, you'll take Joe, but hey, to each his own, I like AJ's game-calling and spirit, and Joe hasn't fully developed into what he can yet)

1st Base: Konerko. Again, Proven hitter vs. Still-not-quite-there hitter. In about 2-3 years the pendulum wiil change, but not yet.

2nd Base: No contest, Tadahito Iguchi. Rivas? Castro? Punto? Who IS the Twins infield, anyway? Iguchi provides solid fundamentals all around the board. No Twin MI provides that.

SS: Same thing. Uribe is a bit low in BA, but for a 9th hitter he's fantastic, and he's still got better defense and hitting than any Twin MI.

3B: Crede. Easy. I mean, Crede's like a mullety-ier version of Cordell, good defense, good pop, and the best sense of clutch in the game today.

LF: I'll take Podsednik, but I wouldn't be unhappy with Stewart. Both provide about the same BA, both have low OBP%, Jacques hits for more power but has WAY fewer 2B and SB, both play about the same defense...like I said, this one's pretty even.

CF: Torii. The first Twin I'm taking. The Twin's biggest threat in all aspects of the game, and with Rowand gone, there's not even a challenger.

RF: Dye. I like Dye's power numbers, and after a good 2004 Ford had a very mediocre 2005. 7HR in 522 tries just doesn't cut it, especially compared to Dye's 30+. SLG% of .377 vs. Dye's .512% for a corner outfielder, plus Dye's got the stronger arm to keep runners from 1st-3rding as much? Dye wins easily. Lew needs a better year.

So of the lineups, I'd take 8 Sox, 1 Twins. Sox bias guided me in the selection of catcher/LF when those are pretty even races, and 1B will be a much closer battle when Morneau figures things out, but even still, the point remains that you're calling Uribe and Pods crap, but they're very much the equal of or better than their peers, and I'd really like to know why you think they're such crap.

Throwing around terms like "over-rated" or "under-performing" is nice and all, but point to WHERE, because I've been pointing to how all our guys are solid contributers, and I can do that all day long with a team like the Sox.

FWIW, there are many who think Rowand's reputation is currently outstripping his production. He's excellent defensively, and makes a ton of highlight plays, but the issue is that sometimes he needs to whereas true gold glovers are in position early enough not to need that. Still, he's young enough that he can improve on that and should remain among the top defensive CFs.

His offense, however, is average at best for the position. Looking at his history, it appears that .270/15HR is more his true line than the 2004 level of .314/25HR. He's got a great attitude, but it doesn't overcome Darren Lewis-like offense. The Sox have guys that are supposedly better defenders in the minors, although that remains to be seen.

As for Thome, the concern would be the back, but if they bring Konerko back, one would think DHing will make it easier to keep him healthy. if healthy, Thome is a threat to put up 45 HR in USCF. Thome-Konerko will be a poor man's Ortiz-Manny, especially with Podsednik-Iguchi putting up fairly strong on-base numbers ahead of them, and they still have their pitching, which is arguably improved with a full year of McCarthy instad of the start to start variability of El Duque.

let'sgomets: You are going to laugh at me like most Twins fans here, but I think the Royals can finish ahead of the Twins in the standings next year with the way it's looking. I expect the Royals to spend some money to get the vets (i.e. Jacque Jones) to complement the young players. I think the Royals got the sticks and their pitching is not that bad either. I will go on a limb. Royals will finish ahead of the Twins next season. I can't tell you how disgusted I am as a Twins fan.

let'sgomets: You are going to laugh at me like most Twins fans here, but I think the Royals can finish ahead of the Twins in the standings next year with the way it's looking. I expect the Royals to spend some money to get the vets (i.e. Jacque Jones) to complement the young players. I think the Royals got the sticks and their pitching is not that bad either. I will go on a limb. Royals will finish ahead of the Twins next season. I can't tell you how disgusted I am as a Twins fan.