I love it when I get to post first!!!
At first I was very much against trading Hunter, but the more he whines, the less I'm against it.
At least someone agrees with me that we'd need more than Cano in a package trade for Hunter.
Should be very interesting to see which way TR goes with additions and subtractions in the coming weeks........

Gosh, I hope he's kidding about Guzie.

Hmmm...I trust TR. This winter should be interesting.

Living near Cincy, I can tell you Dunn is as close to untouchable as you can get.

Very unlikely he is going anywhere.

T-Mac - I agree that I don't like Torii's comments, but as you pointed out, we're unlikely to get enough for Hunter to make it worthwhile.

We learned when we lost Koskie that to replace a player who is a consistent, decent producer is difficult. Hunter is that kind of player.

We're rich in pitching, poor in hitting. Trading away our most conistent RBI producer over the past three years probably won't make sense.

Thome is super damaged goods at this part of hie career. Make sure they give him a physical to end all physicals beofre you agree to get him. Rumor in Philly last year was he cracked a vertebrae in his back.

"Thome is super damaged goods "-

wow is that like a little dent in the can of green beens at the store or is more like a smooshed bag of chips??
I'm starting to think Jimmy did something wrong to Mike in a past life - everytime his name comes up - it's all 'evilness' - I know - I know I'm the opposite when Jimmy's name is mentioned.

"Rumor in Philly last year was he cracked a vertebrae in his back."

Ah - those crazy rumours - that's why they are just that -

WW

He never did anything to me WW but you have to look at how he has preformed since he went to Philly. Was a part of the group that ran Bowa out because he wanted them to play hard. Never took a learedship role. For 16 million people expect more then what he deliviered. The team hasn't been in the playoffs and last year during the push at the end of season he wasn't willing to pinch hit, even though he had been taking batting pratice.

Hey I'm sure the Phillies would love for you to take him, so much so they are willing to eat half of his salary. What does that tell you about him that the team that has him will pay you to take him ?

I too am thinking Torii has to go--most likely we have to wait till Dodgers name GM to make trade--they need CF and can offer more than Yanks.

I want to see Corey come back...

Most of free agents in article are WAY too overpriced like Mike Piazza.

NEVER took a leadership role - wow are kidding me?? I didn't know you were part of the philly clubhouse - I didn't know all leaders had to be over the top and showy -
Uh -the Phillies made a HUGE push for the wild card not just this year but two years ago - and as I recall Jimmy was a big part of that - and as you know all the hitting in the world isnt' going to save you if you don't have the right or enough pitching to compliment it.

Do you know for a FACT that he wasn't willing to pinch hit??
He was shut down this year after he had elbow surgery -if the doctor says to me - hey it's better to get healthy now and play for the next five years - then to risk ending a career prematurely for one at bat -I'm going to listen to the doctor.

And I something tells me Jimmy wasn't the only one who wasn't thrilled with Larry Bowa.

What does that tell me about the Phillies- nothing -really except maybe they didn't appreciate him like they did in Cleveland -

WW

None of the names being bantered about really give me tingles. I dont like the way Hunter's been popping off but on the other hand, I'm sure I'd be a bit frustrated if I were in his shoes now too. I did see where he and Vavra had a chat and Torii's now saying he'll give the guy a chance (gee thanks Torii). That said, trading D and a decent stick when you have pitching and need offense doesnt make a lot of sense on the surface. I sure wouldnt mind seeing Koskie back at third base if the price is right, but the rest of the former Twins listed just don't excite me either. I guess I'm saying it's time for TR to show me he's smarter than me and the rest of the back seat GMs around here (shouldnt be too hard to prove).

"you have to look at how he has preformed since he went to Philly. Was a part of the group that ran Bowa out because he wanted them to play hard. Never took a learedship role. For 16 million people expect more then what he deliviered. The team hasn't been in the playoffs and last year during the push at the end of season he wasn't willing to pinch hit, even though he had been taking batting pratice."

Phillies phan here. While I don't claim to have any insider knowledge--no sources in the clubhouse or the front office, nothing like that--I do follow the team pretty closely. In fact, I run a (Batgirl-approved!) blog at www.thegoodphight.com. So let me try to unpack some of what's quoted above.

--in the two full seasons before 2005, Thome averaged 44.5 homers, 118 RBI, 107.5 walks, and a .967 OPS. His raw numbers were a bit better in '03--when he almost single-handedly dragged the Phils into the playoffs--but his rate stats were actually better in '04. Keep in mind that he had little protection below him in the lineup, as Pat Burrell was horrible in 2003 and not all that good the following year, and Bowa never gave Chase Utley a full-time job. The offense was basically Bobby Abreu and Big Jim.

--as to Bowa, there were players who were pretty outspoken against the Fiery Li'l Skipper (as we sometimes called him): Lieberthal, Burrell, and most of the bullpen, among others. Thome never said a word against Bowa publicly, and Bowa has never to my knowledge trashed Jim since getting canned. Most of the team hated Larry; I really don't think Jim did.

--let's talk about 2005 and Thome's prospects going forward. I went down to spring training one weekend this past March and saw Jim mash two homers in two games. I honestly thought he'd be the MVP of the league this year. But he had a back problem early, tried to play through it, was disabled in May and brought back too soon, and went on the shelf for good in July with elbow problems. I think he tried to come back too quickly because the Phils' manager, Charlie Manuel, is one of Thome's closest friends in the game and he wanted to put the team on his back as he did through '03. His '05 numbers were pretty bad: .207 average, 7 homers, .712 OPS. He still drew his walks, but the swing had slowed.

What made things worse was that Thome had to play defense in the NL. Manuel eventually admitted that the problem was more throwing the ball than swinging the bat; as a DH, obviously this wouldn't be an issue. I'm pretty certain that his elbow problem won't linger into 2006; I believe Will Carroll at Baseball Prospectus has written about it, if anyone wants to look it up.

So what about the back? That's the reason why Cleveland wouldn't offer Thome a sixth year back in the winter of 2002; the Phillies, desperate to make a splash, did so knowing the risks (but probably not fully realizing what they had in Ryan Howard, who had just put up a good/not great season in low A at the time). Bowa, and later Manuel, probably didn't rest him enough in those two full seasons, and particularly in 2004 Thome wore down toward the end of the year.

With the Twins (or any AL team), Thome could probably play 140 games without much trouble, because he'd DH in at least half of them. Turf isn't good for big guys with back problems, so I suspect Minnesotans would rarely see him in the field. That's fine; I can't remember what Morneau's defense is like, but the Phils definitely saw an upgrade when Howard took over. You wouldn't have a big disadvantage using him at first against the Phils in the 2006 World Series, though ;)

Even with his "injury history" (I include the quotes because prior to 2005, Jim had avoided the DL six years straight and nine of the previous ten) and age-related decline, you're looking at a Hall of Fame caliber slugger at age 35 who's likely to hit 40 bombs, get on base close to 40 percent of the time, and approach a .300 average. If you can get that guy at a cost of $6-7 million a year for three years--about what the Twins would pay if the Phils picked up half the contract--you jump at it. Were it not that we have Ryan Howard--essentially a slightly inferior version of the same player, nine years younger, at just above the league minimum--the Phils would never consider moving him. As a Twins fan, I'd love to see him play there.

I'm perplexed by the thought of trading Hunter. If they move him who on this team has any fire left? We'll be left with a bunch of nice guys and not much intensity. If anything the team needs more attitude, not less.

Guys with attitude hitting .240

In my book, at least.

Dear Mr. Stoned,

Is it in the Phils' nature to pay half of someone's salary in the manner you describe?

Curiously,
BG

I haven't been too keen lately on all of the "hot stove" talk. Personally, I let those who know more about baseball battle this stuff out, and then, come April, I watch the team I love. Anywho, I've discovered Twins blogging recently and am more addicted to it than I was to cigerettes. Anywho, I think Hunter for Cano and something else would be great because we'd get someone who seems to be a decent 2B, with what seems to be good numbers at the plate. (I say seem becuase he has only had one year, on a team which, obviously, excells at hitting) The thing this would also do would open up money to get a solid DH, like Piazza. I'm wondering, has there been any estimates to how much Piazza would cost? Is there a down-side to Piazza? I have no idea. Does anyone have any insights?

From the Sox side of things, word is that the Sox offered Konerko 48 mil for 4 years. He ain't gonna take that. Dunno how high the offers will go, odds are it'll be the largest contract in Sox history if we get something he accepts. I'm guessing he'll either take someting like 65mil/5years with incentives, or he's got a new uniform, and it won't be one in our division (nobody else has the money to get him).

If Paul's gone, I expect him to end up in Boston, where they'll look to say "Look! We don't need Theo!" by making a huge signing and pay him probably 5 year 75mil dollars, possibly 80. If he doesn't end up on the White Sox again, he's gonna get a HUGE payday. Much as I like the guy, I'll say it, he's gonna get over-spent on to a degree that will make Carl Pavano blush.

Mr Krogh - The downside to Piazza is that if we wanted someone that could hit at least as well as him, if not better, we'd have been better off keeping LeCroy. They had similar '05 seasons in terms of OPS (certainly not only way to measure offensive performance, but a decent yardstick to start with), and LeCroy would be cheaper. Piazza would be pretty one-dimensional as well, since he'd only be DHing, and that was one of the reasons they let LeCroy go. Piazza's not the answer in my opinion.

I can't believe people still say "EVEN Ken Griffey, Jr."

Dear BG

As someone that lives inbetween NYC and Philly, I will say no. The phillies are not the type of team that eats salary, but they have a huge problem with what do with Howard/Thome. The fans will revolt if they trade Howard (it would be Dick Allen all over again)so they will eat salary in this case because they can't afford to alienate the fans any more.

Only one year after opening a new park the attendance was close to one million less then last season. Even during the end of season push, when they had a chance to make the playoffs, people didn't show up.

Who they pick as GM and what they do with Thome/Howard are critical decisions for them this year. They have been in baseball for 125 years, 1 world series championship and 5 NL pennets, last time in the play-offs was 12 seasons ago. People aren't happy.

mike

BG believes that if the Phils wanted to deal Thome (which it seems they do) they'd be able to find teams that could pay most or all of his salary. A proven hard slugging first baseman/DH? Seems some other teams need that besides us, oui?

Now, Ryan Howard.....

Let's just bring back the whole 2002 squad, shall we?

Koskie? Guzman?

c'MON. Get real.

Dear BG

Would you be willing to trade Santana for Howard ? I think unless they were to get back an arm with Santana like skills, Howard is off the market.

mike

p.s. Or Joe Mauer as they need a catcher pretty damn badly too.

mike

Dear Mr. Mike,

No. I know the only way we'd get someone like Howard is if we got them totally drunk (and I do think we should consider that as a valid course of action). Mitts off my president.

Love,
BG

Dear BG

I'm pretty sure your GM can beat up their GM, and drink him/her under the table.

mike

Just a plug for my forthcoming article on SethSpeaks.net. In it, I claim that the Phillies would pay part of the salary if the twins gave them enough in return, just as the Rangers paid a huge chunk of A-Rod's salary because the Yankees gave them Soriano et. el. Whom to send? Lohse, Romero and Stewart, for starters.

As for trading Torii, of-the-field concerns aside, when you're biggest weakness is righthanded power in the middle of the order, why do you trade right-handed power? You'd have to get Cano and a right handed power bat who can produce NOW. That aint gonna happen.

I think Ryan Howard could be the next Big Papi

Gentle BG and others:

No, the Phillies haven't ever paid significant dollars from a contract they've traded, at least to my knowledge. But until very recently, they never had contracts of the size and length to really raise the question. Before around 2002, their only above-market deals were to Darren Daulton and Lenny Dykstra in the mid-1990s, and both those guys were always hurt and thus untradeable.

Also considering that a new GM will make the decision--a credentialed outsider, most likely either Pat Gillick (former Blue Jays, Orioles, Mariners) or Gerry Hunsicker (Astros)--I don't think past history will figure into it. Since we are the losing franchise in the history of pro sports (thankyaverymuch), this is probably a Good Thing.

Ryan Howard almost certainly isn't going anywhere, though I've told Batgirl that in the alternate universe in which we're the GMs of our favorite teams, I would think about a Liriano/Kubel/Crain-like package for RyHo...

Are you Philadelphia Phillie legend Jeff Stone? THE Jeff Stone?

Can we trade for Philly's stadium?
That might help.

If we trade Torii, TR better have a pretty good reason. No 1 player deals. Why would you trade the most productive hitter on the team? If you take that and his leadership qualities, Torii seems pretty untouchable unless we get a monster blockbuster deal.

Mr. Boo,

I am not legendary Phillie Jeff Stone. My user name, however, refers to the plight of Phillies phans who come to believe that a rising prospect will be the franchise savior, and then the guy turns out to, well, suck.

Usages include: "The Phillies have jeffstoned me again", and "Everybody must get jeffstoned." It just has a better ring than "Wendellmageed" or "Marlonbyrded," and I'm of the age where it was Stone's flop that scarred me; by the time those later OFs came around, I half-expected what happened.

Torii just awarded his 5th Gold Glove in a row.

(click my name)

CONGRATS TORII!!!!

Scott Hatteberg just became available. I wonder if this is the level of FA that the Twins are going to hang a hope and a prayer on.

I'm not a numbers guy but I did watch him play alot for the A's and he has always seemed like a solid player who can play 1B and 3B and had a strong presence in the club house.

It's not that I think this would be a huge thing for the Twins but I never except the Twins to sign a big name anymore. Seems like a player like this is the best the Twins ever go for. After all last spring we fans were supposed to be excited that Eric Munson was invited to camp.

Jeff Stone -

I have 9 of your '88 Topps cards. The photo is clear as day in my mind. Would you like to purchase them from me? I tried selling them on Ebay, but unbelievably had no takers.

Please click my name for a synopsis of what is now referred to as simply The Jeff Stone Incident.

Guardado's option was picked up by the Mariners so long-shot that it was, he's no longer a possibility.

Jeff Stone -

I have 9 of your '88 Topps cards. The photo is clear as day in my mind. Would you like to purchase them from me? I tried selling them on Ebay, but unbelievably had no takers.

Please click my name for a synopsis of what is now referred to as simply The Jeff Stone Incident.