You tell it, sister. You tell it. *sniff*

Twins trade Torii Hunter = I no longer purchase season tickets.

If the Twins trade Torii, I will cry. Amen, Jim Souhan. Amen.

Souhan's article sums it all up. I am not a Pohlad fan. He needs to pull some money out of his ass and keep Torii here.

Amen, BG. Losing Torii would be the worst thing ever.

You said it. Pohlad needs to remember that great players sell tickets.

I can't even be angry. I just want to cry.

Trading Torii (my all time B.O.D.) would NOT be good for the Twins. I personally would not attend as many games as I do. I am getting dewey eyed just thinking about it.....

Yeah, if they get rid of Torii, I expect quite a bit of fan backlash. You want more fans in the seats? You want a new stadium? Getting rid of your star player and fan-favorite (and, really, the FACE of the Twins) is going to make achieving those goals much, MUCH more difficult.

After reading the Strib story and Souhan's column, I simply don't think this will happen unless the Twins get blown away with an offer. And "blown away" would have to be huge, considering that 16 percent of the 2006 roster (Joe, JohanJr. LNP and The Jackal) came from losing Milton and Pierzynski, a couple of minor talents.

This is the kind of thinking out loud that takes place when teams don't perform up to expectations, a good exercise but hardly anything like a done deal. Not even close. General managers and other front-office personnel talk trades all the time. (And rich people buy and sell real estate all the time, too, so Torii's condo being on the market doesn't particularly sway me.)

That being said, the 2006 Twins need more power and someone else who can get on base and share space at the top of the order with Shannon. LNP, LeCroy, Castro and maybe even Cuddyer and LewFord are great players to have on a championship team, but we're not bringing home any championships if those guys are playing every day instead of coming over the bench. I'm still not totally sure about Lew on that count, but I am about the others.

That being said, one of the great things about baseball is its subplots. My favorite subplot is that the B-Sox play 13 of their final 17 games against Us and the Travis Hafners, starting tonight.

It's perfectly appropriate for us to root our booties off for the smug Guillenites to slump themselves all the way out of the playoffs.

I agree with RD--if this trade happens, it better a MONSTER. If not, well, none of my favorite Twins have really left yet, but Jacque seems on his way out and Torii, well, I have had two posters of Torii that have followed me from room to room since I came to college in the fall of 2002. And I have a Torii jersey that has hung very forlornly in my closet since he got hurt. I would seriously miss Torii. And if it was a trade that was clearly for money reasons and didn't improve the team, well, I can't say I would be happy at all.

We cannot be T-Nutt-less - not good -not good at all -
Plus that would leave us with one less Superhero -
not good I say -

I think we need to stop 'hoarding' all the youngun's we have(no not Baker or Francisco) - I'm sure they would fetch a nice Travis Hafner Like hitter to sandwhich between the Good Doctor and the Chairman -

much love
Wonder Woman

I wholeheartedly agree with your comment on Corey Koskie, by the way. I still miss that Canuck.

As far as Hunter goes, I promised myself I would not criticize him as long as he is the best center fielder in the league. However, I figured his time might be short since he fields with Griffey, Jr.-type abandon. I should probably keep holding my tongue, but I wonder how many games he's missed compared to Kirby Puckett in his time.

Is it true that Torii is the "most productive" right handed batter the Twins have? In contrast to his fielding, I think that too often he looks uncomfortable and guessing at the plate. He'll stare at strikes and flail at balls out of the zone. I feel in better hands with Stewart, Ford, and even Matthew Station-to-Station batting.

And while I was wrong in believing I'd never see another Kirby Puckett in center field for the Twins, the equally likeable and admittedly more handsome Hunter cannot hold a candle to Kirby batting.

Finally, I know Torii's just using his hard-won American freedom of speech, and he's often speaking my mind as well as his, but I wish he'd make more comments that pumped up his teammates, instead of putting them and management on the spot.

If Hunter doesn't come back blazing, and if we could get some hitting out of any deal, I would not be too sad to see Lew Ford in center and to end the Hunter Era and begin the Latin Pitching Era.

If the Twins trade Hunter, my prediction is that they won't see the playoffs again for a very long time. Simple as that. He IS this team.

k-bro

I'm not concerned. It simply won't happen. The "talk" is basically just to point out to other GMs around the league that there are no "untouchable" veterans on the Twins roster. So if George contacts Terry and offers A-Rod, Jeter and the money to pay their salaries in return for Torii, he'll listen. Nothing short of a blockbuster is going to see Hunter wearing anything but Twinstripes next year. (Not to mention that with the injury, the market for Hunter is not what it otherwise would have been.)

That said, the argument that Carl needs to keep Hunter or anyone else if he wants his stadium is not a good one, imo. This line of rumors also sends a message to the Governor and legislature... call the damn special session and pass the damn bill. All this crap about calling a special session to deal with stadiums when something like Katrina is far more important (you're 800 miles NORTH of the Gulf, folks) just makes you look silly. Using a disaster like that for political cover is contemptable. Do your jobs. Either pass the bill or vote it down and let Carl know it's OK if he sets up shop in Vegas.

Sorry to get off topic a bit, but the bottom line is don't shed those tears yet... I'll believe Torii's going only when I see it happen. Even Calvin was smart enough not to trade Killebrew (oh.. wait a minute.. bad example).

Maybe we could trade Torii for some good starting pitching. If we had that CLemens guy, he gives up only .0032 runs per game, we would only need 1 run to win.

Dear Mr. Fan,

Brilliant.

Love,
BG

You know ... We could use a good centerfielder, and with the O we have Torii could just play his game without worrying about carrying a team.

If your team no longer wants him, we will take him. Of course only if Pohlad doesn't want him anymore.

p.s. I don't think you really need that Santana fellow anymore either. We'll take him too.

Ish. I remember how betrayed I felt when I learned Pohlad was going to accept a buy out and have the Twins eliminated. The news of trading Torii brings back those sort of feelings. Trading Torii effectively trades a large piece of this team's soul for... what? One or two potential "bats"?

Personally, I believe the devastating impact of trading Torii would be greater than the potential positive impact of some unknown players. Trading a player like Torii is to test the ethical balance of fan loyalty and business economics.

I know recognize baseball is a business, but one of the core principles of business is to have a good product. If you don't have a good product, you won't generate interest, and losing customer/fan interest can lead into a negative spiral of customer disinterest and financial red ink.

We can assume Pohlad to be a savvy business man because savvy business men do not stay in unprofitable businesses nor do they become extremely wealthy through pure luck. We could further assume that Pohlad is using the Twins to his financial gain in some fashion, either through a profitable Twins organization or using fancy accounting techniques to use a red-ink organization as some sort of tax write-off.

Factor in all of the elements that make the Twins who they are (stadium, players, television, player development, success, etc) and they remain a second-rate product in when compared to our east and west coast brethern. Granted, it's part of the Upper Midwest perogative to enjoy and belly-ache about our second-tier status, but I'm really tired of this sort of disloyalty in professional sports.

Sounds like a plan, if that ole man can pitch every game. Otherwise, there are still a lot of 2-1 losses ahead when those ragarms like Santana, Radke and Silva take the mound.

Did I read in the Strib that the twins have had eleven 2-1 games this year and won only 2 of them? Ouch.

btw As a person that is not a Twins fan, right now Torii and Johan are the two guys that most represent your team. If the Twins are coming to town you want to go see them because of Torii and Johan. I think it would be a msitake for them to trade Torii.

um... I wholeheartedly concur with everything nailbiter said. I'm sorry.

I haven't read the articles in question yet, haven't the heart. I'll be wearing a Hunter jersey to my wedding tomorrow, that tells you a bit about how I feel about the guy.

I really want the team to somehow keep both Jacque and Torii for a while longer.

I simply don't see it as the emotional issue others do. Unlike a couple of you, to me this makes no business sense either in the short term or long term. In order to keep their own 'stars', the Twins rely on some of those players being willing to re-sign for less money when they're free agents than they could get on the open market. That requires a sense of loyalty. To expect that, you have to occasionally (not always) be willing to show some yourself to those who have been most responsible for the level of success you've had. Disposing of Hunter (or a Radke, for that matter) for anything short of the highest value imaginable tells future stars (Mauer, for instance) that no matter what their contribution now, if you have one off-season (or one off-HALFseason and an injury), you'd better hope the team still makes the playoffs or your butt's on the market. Add to that, the obvious backlash trading Hunter would have with the majority of your fanbase and it all adds up to a bad business decision. Maybe my faith is misplaced, but say what you will about TR and Carl, they rarely make bad business decisions.

Laurel.. just some unsolicited advice from someone you don't know... wearing the jersey to the wedding is one thing. But never wear a shirt to bed that has another man's name on it, especially on your wedding night or honeymoon. Big time mood killer.

Congratulations btw and best of luck :)
JC

Offensive-statistics-wise, I think it might make sense to trade Hunter. You could probably get a pair of damn good hitters (a DH and a 3B, please!) for $5 million each.

But I agree with JimCrikket that it's a sketchy move from a business perspective, because the only reason some people pay money to visit that miserable godforsaken concrete bunker is to see Torii Hunter, not his rent-a-slugger replacement.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Emotions aside, trading Torii makes no sense. The Twins don't need to subtract a 25 HR 75-95 RBI bat from the lineup to improve, they need to trade their surplus arms to add a 30HR, 100 RBI bat to the lineup.

If an outfielder has to go, I say trade Stewart and his salary, plus pitching for a bigger, middle order bat. Equally I would rather trade Stewart and use his salary to keep the JJ roller-coaster-ride experience, which has the added benefit of keeping Torii happier.

Without Torii, the Twins would STILL be in that dark, dark sucking time. He isn't the only reason, but they would never have emerged without him.

Dear Batgirl,

It makes a lot of sense for the Twins to keep Torii Hunter. People always talk about pitching and how important it is, but they don't recognize how connected pitching is to fielding. Sorry about mentioning stats, but I've gotta point out that some of the numbers guys have finally realized that good earned run averages don't only reflect the pitcher's effort, but also result in large part from great fielding up the middle. Most folks who care enough to look, realize that the great fielding second baseman Bill Mazeroski probably lowered the era's of Pittsburgh's pitchers a decent amount. So too with Alomar, Vizquel, and Lofton.

In recent years, almost all the teams credited with great pitching have very good fielding up the middle as well. Braves pitchers acknowledge how much they are helped by the wonderful Andruw Jones in center field. A's pitchers mention Mark Kotsay's great fielding, St. Louis pitchers talk about Edmonds, etc.

Yankee pitchers used to be better in the late 90s, but they also had a young Bernie Williams and Derek Jeter behind them making them better. The same can be said for teams like the Orioles, etc. It may even be true for the Twins. While Guzman and Rivas didn't hit at all, they may have played a larger role in the Twins' low era's than anyone was interested in mentioning. So pitching goes up and down in large part based on fielding.

My own White Sox are getting great pitching this year, but the much lower era's are clearly also related to finally having great fielders like Iguchi, Uribe, and Rowand behind them.

So what I'm trying to say at long length is that if indeed the Twins plan to try to get back to winning with good pitching, it's hard to do that without good fielding, particularly up the middle. So keeping Torii could also make sense as part of a plan to restrengthen the pitching.

That aside, Go Sox!

Fridays are "getmeoutoftheofficenow" day so it's probably not coincidence that I post messages more on Friday than any other day. At the risk of beating this horse further, I'll add another thought.

BG.. when I discovered your blog through a link from the Geek's site early this year, I had no idea of the breadth of your (well earned) following. Reading the June "Rake" that today's entry links to was my first real confirmation of what I guess I only suspected before... that the Twins themselves were no doubt well aware of, and regular readers, of your efforts.

One must wonder if the "brains" in the frong office might not also be regular browsers of this, as well as many other notable blogs. Companies such as mine pay $1000s for "customer surveys" in order to guage what our customers think of our products and service. (I know, because it's part of my job to analyze the results.)

I can only imagine how much more value I would get if there were blogs of the quality of this and a few other sites that were dedicated to my company's products. It may not be scientific, but the value of being able to regularly guage the level of interest and support for your product is obvious to any businessperson.

Which makes one wonder... if you were a GM that wanted to send up a trial balloon to measure the possible reaction to a trade of a popular player... how would you do it and where would you go to check the results?

If you are following my little flight of fantasy here, everyone feel free to wave "hello" to TR now. (Those of you using only one finger should be ashamed... but not altogether blamed.)

JC

Terry, if you're out there -- don't even think about it!

- Kurtis

In 1989, the Twins traded the reigning Cy Young Award winner in the middle of the season. They got five players in return. Two of those players, Kevin Tapani and Rick Aguilera, were instrumental in the World Championship that they won in 1991.

After the 1997 season, the Twins traded Chuck Knoblauch, easily the best player on the team, and at the time someone who had all the credentials of a future Hall of Famer for Guzman, Eric Milton, and Brian Buchanan. Since then, Milton was converted into Carlos Silva and Buchanan was converted into Jason Bartlett.

There are two relatively recent examples of the Twins doing quite well trading their best player.

If a Hunter trade works out like those trades did, the Twins will be in better shape after the trade than before it.

"(a DH and a 3B, please!) for $5 million each."

I'm just wndering what quality DH and 3B can you get for 5 mil ? These kind of players cost 8-10.

I mean even Aaron F'ing Boone costs more then 5 mil.

Um. Finkle? Do you remember...1992?

RD said
"It's perfectly appropriate for us to root our booties off for the smug Guillenites to slump themselves all the way out of the playoffs."

And failing that, slumping your way into the play-offs can be lethal to advancement.

AND: Torri is my son's NSMC. He is saving for college and simply cannot afford a new shirt.

Twins territority would suffer a tremendous loss if Torii was dealt. The soul patrol would forever be lost.

I personally think that Torii is the soul of the team, that losing him to injury probably killed any hope we had to get the wild card, and that trading him would usher in a new twin's era. The twins that won three consecutive division titles are Torii's Twins.

The only way this will happen, in my opinion, is if Torii has become unhappy. He expressed lots of frustration early in the year with the younger guys not playing hurt, etc. and also I think he would be upset if JJ were let go. On the otherhand, I don't know where torii could go where he would be happier, or where he could shape the clubhouse and the team the way he has here. And is it just me or have his comments on this seemed un-Torii-like?

The Torii era is bound to end at some point - our team has been a young team for so long now. And quite frankly, if our veterans aren't going to return, I'd rather trade them than just watch them leave as free agents; it hurts less. But I think Mauer needs to emerge as the team leader before we can let Torii go. Torii's time will come, but its in the best interest of the team to let that time come naturally rather than force the ending of an era in team history. After all, we're not just fans of the Twins, we're fans of Torii's Twins.

What about 1992? That was another great Minnesota team. They won 90 games and lost to a great Oakland team. Tapani won 16 games, Aguilera had 41 saves. Meanwhile, the Mets had already given up on Viola, who left to sign with the Red Sox.

If he gets traded, I'm moving to whereever Torii goes.

There's a fine line between being a fan and being a stalker, Angela.

While Torii's salary is a bit of a millstone, I just don't see how you can justify trading your RBI leader (well, in the pre-injury first half, and still near the top despite all the time missed) when your team's biggest problem is *run production*. Doesn't make any sense to me, all other factors being equal.

I agree with everything in Souhan's column today regarding the importance of keeping Torii Hunter around. He really downplays Hunter's struggles at the dish, however. He doesn't just swing at bad pitches once in a while. His difficulties are much more profound than that much of the time. He's a leader, an all-time defensive great and he plays hard, etc., etc., but for every hot streak at the plate, there's a slump that drags on and on. The idea of trading him would be preposterous if he was anywhere near the hitter he once promised to be. Instead, it's just a little far-fetched.

Get rid of him, though, and the Twins will be worse. No question about that.

Agreed, Kleiner. But that would beg the question, "Are the Twins doing all they can to properly teach/coach hitting?" And that's a topic worthy of lengthy debate in and of itself.

Would it suprise me if he was gone this off-season? Definitely not. Especially when you look at the fact that lot of our core players are going to be getting raises especially Carlos Silva, Joe Nathan, and then Baker and Liriano in the next two years. Joe Mauer is going to be a FA soon so he must be kept. Do the math and you have to figure that lot of guys are on their last years. This could be the last time we saw Shannon, Torii, Jacque (he is definitely gone), and maybe Brad Radke. Could be more as far as I am concerned. I could see Morneau be out of town too.

It's pretty obvious that Carl is not going to spend money to get a bonafide FA and he probably feels his team is not going to win the division next season so he may think if his team stink with the current guys, then his team can stink with new guys.

Would dumping the current guys be a bad idea? I for one don't think so. You can always get something good for those guys. Terry Ryan is smart enough to get something good in return. He has proven that last offseason and he can do it now. Besides Torii Hunter is no Kirby Puckett. He is not untouchable. Sure he has done good things as Souhan cited, but Nick Punto did some good things too. Also, Torii has made it publically clear on many occasions that he will likely test the FA market. Twins owe it to themselves to get something in return. Besides I don't think it would be good for the kids to listen to Torii's whining about how this organization is not committed to winning.

Trevor Plouffe, Denard Span, Matt Moses, Garrett Jones, and other kids must be here next year. It's a necessity. So what if they stink. Let them learn. They got nothing to lose. There are no expectations next season and I think it will help them. I think guys like Bartlett and Morneau were too overwhelmed with the pennant race. They can relax too. I don't want to hear how the Twins would set themselves for failure. That type of talk sets the players to go out and fail. The A's traded Hudson and Mulder and they played all their kids. Guess what? They have a chance to go to the playoffs. Atlanta dumps everyone every year. Guess what? They are heading to the playoffs. Indians have that fire sale three years ago and now they are on the verge of making the playoffs. This idea that bringing the kids to the big club would not make the team competitive is nonsense. Oakland dumped everyone and look at them.

So what if they don't make the playoffs. Isn't the object of the game is to either win or be entertaining? Twins haven't done either this year. I like to see an entertaining ballclub. A team that will play hard. I just feel Moses, Jones, Span, and others can do that even if they struggle next season. I am tired of watching Castro, Ford, Cuddyer, and the rest of the stiffs here.

I want new faces and new blood here next season. I am guessing Mr. Pholad feels the same way too.

There is no need to be sad about Torii being gone. He did great thing for this ballclub, but sometimes you gotta move on. I think it's time to start all over again.

Good point about TR planting a trial balloon. That was my first thought when I saw the headline.

Trading Torii would be a HUGE mistake. This team needs to keep the Soul Patrol intact. I agree they need a power hitter but that requires at least 10 million. Maybe take a chance and trade a young pitcher to the Fish for Lowell (3B) who is on his way out.

One has to look at what a player gives for the $ invested in him. When players start getting paid $10M+, one would expect outstanding hitting for that. Other OF that make between 10-13M are Sheffield, Abreu, Vlad, Edmonds, A. Jones, Berkman (and he can play IF too). Torii is not even close to their league in offensive production.

I know he's a fan favorite, but sometimes you have to let them go for the overall good of the team. Take my beloved Brewers for example when they traded fan favorite Sexson. He was putting up monstrous numbers, but was due to make over $10M (which he deserved). He was traded for a very good 1B (Overbay) a 2B (Spivey), that was in turn traded for a solid #3 starter (Ohka), and also a current 17 game winner (Capuano) and a solid bullpen pitcher (De La Rosa). The initial reaction was harsh, however it is clear that the team was made better by this.

It's hard to let go of favorite players, but the team cannot get wrapped up in emotions, else they will keep players around when more good can be done by trading them.

I don't really know where to begin to tackle Leslie's comments so I'll just say this. It is WAY too soon to have a fire sale. It is not too unrealistic to think that, despite him not having his typical offensive production in the first half of the year, having Hunter in the line up for the second half of the season COULD EASILY have meant the difference between winning and losing half a dozen games or more. Wouldn't that make things interesting now?

Short of a HUGE return in a trade (unlikely) there is no replacement for him available right now and as been stated already, you don't solve your offenses problems by getting rid of perhaps your most serious offensive threat.

That said, IF.. by the All Star break next season, the Twins indeed are not in the playoff hunt, I think you either try to sign Hunter to an extension or entertain trades before the deadline. There is no sense in just watching him walk off as a Free Agent if you can get something for him in return, if you aren't in the playoff race.

Next thing you know he'll be getting rid of Santana . . . I need Torii!

Dear Mr. Cricket,

It's not for me, the move is for my fiance Kurtis and his cat Torii.

-Angela

You know the saying from Charlie Finley about how we can stink without you. Well this team will stink with what we got not and they can stink without them, Jim. This idea that if Torii was there, the Twins would be a division contender is nonsense. This team stunk when he was there. I doubt he would have made a difference. Sure he would have played well, but the offense has stunk since the entire season even with Torii Hunter.

You don't solve your problems easily by dumping Torii. It's a process. It's hard to expect Span, Kubel, and the other kids to produce right away. I don't expect this team to be great next year and that's okay. Let use next year as an opportunity for the kids to prove themselves.

I'm cool with whatever TR decides. We've got Denard Span coming up soon. The AA outfield was pretty solid this year. Kubel will be back. Stew and his arm were disappointing and Jones still can't hit lefties at $5 million per. Maybe TR can pull off another amazing trade this winter. If AJ was worth Nathan, Liriano and the Boofster. What will Torii be worth?

If Hunter goes, so be it. Life goes on in this small market town. We don't rebuild, we reload!

The last half of this season has been bad enough. I have only gotten through this whole ordeal becuase I thought that Torii would be back next season. I just don't want to think about it! *sniff sniff*

P.S. What about Jacque! I don't want to lose him either!

in the last 2 years:

player A) 798 OPS, 892 AB
player B) 749 OPS, 1024 AB
player C) 766 OPS, 916 AB
player D) 779 OPS, 1043 AB

all pretty similar, right? well, the players (in order) are:

Hunter
Jones
Stewart
Ford

you're getting basically the same production from Ford (at least a year younger than the rest, and paid $385k this year) as you are from Jones, Stewart, and Hunter, the cheapest of whom is Jones, making an even $5mil this year.
i believe Ford is arbitration eligible this offseason, but he will still be millions cheaper than any of the three next year.
he also strikes out only in only 14% of his ABs, compared with 12% for Stewart (in a Twins uniform), 19% for Hunter, and 21% for Jones.
sorry about the length of the post, but what im getting at is, they're correct - its a good business decision.
however, i'm 25 and i was stressed about whether the Twins would re-sign Puckett when i was in my early teens. i think kids that are paying attention will be turned off to the Twins with this move.
and if Pohlad really wants that stadium, keeping Hunter would be a good move. he's going to have to think about it as an investment that can pay off in a stadium.

Leslie, we're going to have to just agree to disagree on this one. If the BitchSox had kept playing up to their first half standards, you're right... Hunter or no Hunter, no difference. But they've fallen back and there have been so many 1 run games lost that I can't help but believe a health Hunter makes a pretty significant difference. Anyway, enough about that.

Tee-Nutts, stats are stats but as you pointed out at the end, business decisions are about more than stats. They've invested tons in marketing Torri and dumping him for anything less than great value is a bad move.

Angela, your fiance and his cat moving to follow the cat's namesake probably makes it OK... I think... but I'm not sure we should think about it too hard.

Have a good weekend all!
JC out

Kids that are turned off now will jump back on the bandwagon once the Twins start winning. Also, to listen to what the fans think would be suicidal. The team has to do what they think should do best.

As for that stadium, I doubt the state government would give Pohlad the stadium never mind he is paying the whole thing. I don't think the state of Minnesota even care about sports to be honest with you. After all, we just lost the North Stars and the Lakers.

one thing i forgot to address... why do they backload contracts in baseball? in other sports they do it because of salary cap space, right? but since there's no cap in baseball, why does it make sense to give Hunter $6.5mil in 2004, $8mil in 2005, $10mil in 2006, and $12mil in 2007? the only reason i can think of is so that Carl can reap the interest on the millions before it's pried from his (almost) lifeless fingers.
i believe Hunter just turned 30. why should the Twins have to pay him $12mil in 2007, when he's 32 and exiting his prime?
if you ask me, Terry Ryan needs to bear some of the responsibility. if we're going to pay him $36.5mil over 4 years, pay him $12mil this year (or even last year) when his chances of producing for the team are better. or just pay him $9mil every year so he doesnt feel like he's taking a pay cut. he knows what he's getting.

im crossing my fingers, hoping that we're not having this discussion in a couple years about Johan.

I'm going to be the first one to admit I wasn't always the biggest Torii Hunter fan. That is, until the exact moment Torii absolutely annihilated Jamie Burke last season and subsequently murded the Sox season in cold blood.
Then, this spring, my girlfriend and I went to spring training for the first time. Even though Torii gave her "the eye," he was still THE MAN, signing autographs for every kid in the stadium. We went to four games in four different parks, and there he was every time, signing for 45 minutes or more.
Torii hunter is good for baseball, and is a pleasure to cheer for. I have done a complete 180 on the kid, and I love havin him around.
Now, Mr Pohlad, on the other hand....

Dear TR,

Pssst. Wrong outfielder. Look about 100 feet to the left.

- neut

The Hunter contract was backloaded because it was an approximation of what he would have made through his arbitration years plus the beginning of free agency. The $12 million in 2007 is an option. Had Hunter turned into a superstar, they'd have gladly paid it or traded him for value to someone who would.

As it turns out, no way is he worth $12 million to the Twins. He's just simply not that good. Plus, that's about the time that Johan's contract starts to grow. So, in all likelihood the Twins would buy out that 2007 season for $2 million and part ways after next year.

So, you have a choice. Have Hunter for one more year and then lose him for nothing, or trade him in the off-season for players that might make the team better in the future. As they say in Montreal, C'est la vie.

Intangibles aside, $10 million is a lot for a guy who looks like he's guessing at the plate.

Some thoughts for the budget-minded:

The Twins will definitely be parting ways with Mays, Lohse, Mulholland and Rivas. Together, they took up about $12 million this year. Next year those positions will be filled by Baker, Liriano, Bowyer (or Balfour) and Punto (or Abernathy), at a combined cost of under $2 million. That leaves a lot of room to absorb some raises.

As Tee-Nuts pointed out, our four starting outfielders are essentially the same in terms of OPS. But Torii does the most in the field, and the most when he's on base. Since Lew only hits when he's also playing in the field, he needs to be out there next year. Why not trade Stewart? He's almost certainly peaked, and Lew can make up for his production. Lew will never have Torii's power or stolen bases, which help us create runs. Trading Stewie will save us another $6 million or so. Or don't re-sign Jones. Neither one of those guys brings as much to the team every night as Torii does.

And by the way, we are nowhere close to needing to rebuild. Our pitching is incredible, and without Mays, Lohse, and Mulholland, it can be even better next year. We don't need to have the Red Sox offense. As BG so astutely pointed out the other night, we just need four runs a game. With a decent third baseman, and better production out of our young guys, the 2-1 losses are going to be 3-2 wins. (Or at least extra inning games, in which we have a sick winning percentage).

No need to panic!

Now, neut, be nice. We need a decent leadoff hitter with a good on-base percentage, someone who doesn't flail wildly at stuff outside the strike zone, too.

And someone was comparing Ford's numbers. Sure, a Stewart-Ford-Jones outfield would be nice too, but teams don't just fill their 3 spots and then figure they're done. Teams need 4 or 5 outfielders. Heck, how many did we go through last year?

Problem is, so many of our everyday guys are flawed ballplayers in one way or another.

Getting Stewie turned our year around a while back. He's not that guy anymore.

Torii is wonderful defensively - offensively, he vacilates between killing the opposition & killing an inning. That would be fine as long as he was, say, the 4th best hitter on the team.

Offensively, Jones is Torii on steroids.

No offense to Cuddles, but 3B is supposed to be an offensive position (as opposed to being played offensively). Really, I don't mind where his defense is these days, I just want something from the bat - and this year he's hit like a middle infielder.

Bartlett has promise - but he's a 9 or a 2 hitter at best.

The good Dr. has to figure out what he is - he stands off the plate like a "use the field" hitter, then he pulls off everything like a pull hitter. Either hit the ball where it's pitched or move way in on the plate & try to pull everything into the upper deck!!!

We should abolish 2B and play with 8.

Joe needs to bulk up - - - but don't call Raffy Palmero!!!!!

Thing is -

We don't have a leadoff hitter.

We have a 2 (Bartlett) who isn't ready yet.

We'll have a 3 as soon as Joe gets better vs. lefties & bulks up a bit.

Dr. M could be a 4 - first he has to figure out what he's going to do up there.

Torii's a 5 or 6.

Jones is a 6 or 7.

Cuddyer's a 7 - and you'd rather have him as an 8, though we've abolished 2B, remember.

We want to get rid of the DH - if all the pitchers have to hit, we gain.

Oh no no no... this is horrible, horrible news.
I, too, think this would be a horrible move for Minnesota. Probably the worst trade ever.

Here's bit of an update on Torii - he says's it's a good business move as far as selling the home here in MPLS - update on his ankle too!

http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050916&content_id=1212308&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min

Yeah - I can't sleep

Much love
Wonder Woman

When the Twins let Ron Coomer go after the 2000 season, I remember reading a LTE in the Strib which bashed Pohlad and the club. The writer felt like Coom-Dog embodied all the hardworking and fan-friendly attributes that set a good example for the kids and represent the best of baseball. If the Twins didn't care to keep a guy of such character, he felt it was a slap in the face and yet another sign that Carl Pohlad just had no interest in anything but meeting his bottom line. The writer sounded like he had reached his end; that was his kiss-off to the club. Since then, I've occasionally wondered about that guy. How long did it take into the 2001 season before he was back? Did he feel the same sense of pessimism and outrage when Lawton, Eddie and LaTroy, Dougie, A.J., Koskie, or Guzman were squeezed out? Is every season a process of repairing the betrayals and disappointments he felt the previous winter? Will he write the same letter to the Strib if Torii is traded after this season?

I think Torii Hunter should be offered around this winter, at least, and I'd prefer to see TR trade him. Torii is a Gold Glove but mediocre bat who slumped more often than not for the 4 months he played this season, he's never become the player Terry Ryan believed he could be when Torii signed that big contract a few years ago, and he'll be due $10.75 million next year. I know he's Batgirl's secret love, but I believe there are better things Terry Ryan could do with that money. Two of the Soul Patrol outfielders should go this offseason--way too much of the payroll right now is sunk into 3 guys who don't put up big numbers for the outfield. And if one of them is Torii, it would give TR a lot more flexibility to improve the lineup quickly.

Billy Beane has flipped better players, who were better leaders, than Torii for new talent that has kept the A's in the playoff race each year. Theo traded Nomar, an icon of Boston, en route to winning the World Series for the first time in 86 years, you might have heard. I saw my hometown Mariners lose Johnson, Griffey, and A-Rod--now let that sink in--and the team only became better and more popular than before. I cried like a little kid the day I heard Griffey wanted out of Seattle. I used to say the Seattle fans would abandon the team if the M's ever cut Griffey loose. I was wrong. There was virtually no change in attendance the year after Griffey left, staying at 2.9 million fans. The 3 years after that (2001-3), the Seattle gate was well over 3 million each season. I know plenty of M's fans who still love Griffey and would like to see him return to the fold someday. Heck, I know plenty of M's fans who still carry a torch for Omar Vizquel or even Little Joey Cora. But the loss of those players doesn't diminish their loyalty and affection for the team.

Teams afraid of change eventually will stagnate and fall down the standings. A GM on a budget especially can't afford to become overly fond of expensive players who don't produce like Big Stars. I'm sorry, I know Torii is popular, but he doesn't hit like a Big Star except in fits and starts. Part of the reason the lineup has a Boom Boom problem is that Torii Hunter gets paid too much money to flail at pitches he can't hit most of the year.

It may hurt the day you read that Torii has been traded. You may curse Pohlad and vow to care less about the Twins and go to fewer games. But if TR can take full advantage of the opportunities created by trading away Torii and a couple other big contracts, as he has when letting go of popular players before, you will get over the bitterness and sorrow. You'll find new favorites, you'll embrace their talents and fresh quirks, you'll cheer their successes, and you'll discover that you really do love the Twins more than any one particular player. Nobody is bigger than the team.

Ok I will be the first to admit I am not the biggest Torii (or Torpi as a local Mickey D's had it once)fan. That being said, I to would be disappointed if he was traded. My frustration with this team this year is no one seems to be willing to step up to the plate and take a leadership role. Mouthing off to the press is not being a team player. Watching everyones backside and setting an example of what a team should be is leadership. I see that lacking with my Twins. I have said it before and I will say it again, I am a Twins fan through thick and thin.
Oh by the way Calvin did trade Killer but that was at Killers request. Calvin thought it was time for him to retire and Killer still wanted to play. Calvin said no, so Killer said trade me. Well history shows he had an horrible season with KC and if asked about it today he will tell you he was wrong and old Calvin was right.

Well said, frightwig.

I'm sorry, but I must be the only one who noticed that after Torii was hurt, the amount of "clubhouse dissent" stories seemed to multiply exponentially. The issue here is that trading Torii is not only not necessary, it really would be like trading Kirby Puckett after 1990. The Twins will undoubtedly have one of the top 3 staffs in all of baseball next year, if not the best. There _will be_ lots of 1-run games. In those games, you need a few things:

1) Great fielding. One unearned run can crush a team's spirit and end those types of games, while a single dazzling play in the field can provide some momentum that carries over to the offense.
2) Someone to keep things loose.
3) Veteran leadership.
4) A guy willing to do whatever it takes to drive a stake into the heart of the other team.

When Torii went down, the Twins season was over. It's because we didn't have our guy to do those things. The clutch hitting had to go to Jacque, and he can't handle it alone. This team needs more bats, not less. We have endless potential in that infield, and a spare arm or two in the pen. Trade some of that, not the leader of a 3-time division champion. This is not a fire sale, this is not the end of the Torii era. This is a team a bat or two from being a serious World Series contender. Let's not forget that.

I would be shocked if Hunter isn't back next season. He is in many ways the face of the team, and I beleive he is in their budget for 2006. I'm glad about that; I enjoy watching him play, though I acknowledge there are serious weaknesses in his game.

Clay, while losing Hunter hurt this season, as I recall they actually went on their best 2nd half run, closing to within hailing distance of the wild card, after he went down.

Still, those that are Hunter fans need to realize that he isn't going to be around forever. I have a hard time envisioning them picking up his option for 2007, but even if they do, I doubt they would sign him beyond that. He will, at that point, be in his decline years, and his best attribute, his ability to play center field, will be eroding.

The Twins obviously need to figure out who to keep as long as reasonable and possible (Radke), and who to trade before they have to (Pierzynski) in order to maintain the budgetary balancing act they need to.

I assume Jones will be gone, which both increases the importance of keeping Hunter around another year or two, and also will probably make him unhappy.

But I have to say, he needs to not be so damn cranky about the young players on the team. Look, I'm sure he's unhappy to see his group leaving--that's natural and human. And I'm sure he's frustrated with how this season has gone. But it wasn't so long ago that he was that young player getting playing time in the majors (135 games in 1999, 99 in 2000--he was briefly demoted that year) even though he was pretty bad. It wouldn't be too much to ask for him to remember that.

Remember, we're all friends here, so don't shoot!!

I think Ford has taken up the center field quite nicely. I've seen a lot of games since Hunter went down, and I don't think Ford has missed a beat yet. I think we could trade Hunter's decent (.269) bats for two good ones, and still come out with change in our pockets. And I wonder how happy Hunter will be without his JoJo....

It's not just a matter of whether we love Torii Hunter: of course we do. But the lineup is way too thin, and I honestly don't think Hunter is giving us $10 million worth of power. (Other Twins with similar averages are earning ~ $400k.) I just can't see how to justify it.

Great post, fright.

There is no way the Twins should keep Hunter for over $10 million.

Twins fans have to face the reality that their market and fan support only support a $60 million team. You can't expect Pohlad to field a $100 million team in a $60 million market.

And sorry, but there is no way that you can justify giving Hunter 1/6 of the entire teams payroll. Not even close.

I like Hunter. He plays the game hard. He is a great center fielder. But he is a very average hitter, and particular poor in the clutch with runners on base. If the Twins could keep him for $5-6 million, I'd be for it.

But for over $10 million no way. We have Kubel coming back, and Alex Romero had a great year in the minors this year as well. Get some decent offensive prospects for Hunter in trading him, and use some of the $10 million saved to cement the pitching staff and shop for an adequate replacement.

Mssrs. Wig and Finkle make excellent arguments about trade of big name players that have ended up being extremely beneficial for the Twins...in the future. But are we really ready to start rebuilding? Don't we want to win now?

I think the Twins could improve the offense in 2006, as well as help the club over the next 5 years, by trading Torii this winter. Losing Torii and Jacque (or Stewart) wouldn't necessarily lead to a losing record next season or years of rebuilding. After losing Griffey, the Mariners brought in John Olerud, Mike Cameron, Aaron Sele, Kaz Sasaki, and Arthur Rhodes, and improved from 79 wins to 91 the next year. A-Rod was replaced in 2001 by Ichiro, Bret Boone, and Jeff Nelson, and the team improved to 116 wins. Or, to take the A's as an another example, how many losing seasons have they had since losing Giambi, Tejada, Hudson, and Mulder?

I'd look at trading Torii as an opportunity to reshape and improve the team more quickly than TR could do if he keeps Torii on the payroll. Whether that leads to a slow rebuilding or an instant upgrade next season depends on what TR does with that opportunity. The club is likely going to lose Torii after next season anyway, so why wait?