Sad, but true. Correct on all counts.

I think the fact we are relegated to a "small-market" (never liked this classification) means those inside the organization do not realize when they have, in fact, alienated the consumers. When Yankee fans get upset about lack of talent or success, the management is forced to do something about it or they face enormous losses. In my opinion, the Twins "money heads" fall back too much on the assumption that year in and year out we will have the same attendance, regardless of the team on the field. Any increase in ticket sales is simply seen as a bonus, and not something to work towards.

But I am afraid you are far too correct on every point, Batgirl.

The Twins have built up goodwill over the course of the last four years by WINNING. I disagree that there isn't any goodwill. Ratings for Twins games have been extremely high - there is a lot of interest for the Twins in this area. However, it hasn't necessarily translated into gate receipts. I think the issue is far more complicated.

First of all, the Twins are right. The dome is no good for baseball. I have been to countless games and have sat all over the park. Frankly, there are a lot of places where you can't see the ball in the roof or coming off of the bat. I have been to games in 14 major league parks and the Metrodome is the only one where seeing the ball is an issue. Furthermore, the environment is very sterile. Green grass and open skies -- two of the great things about baseball, and two things missing from the Metrodome. Baseball viewing is an experience -- it's more than the game on the field. It also includes the environment. Baseball is unique in this regard, at least among American sports. And the Metrodome does not have these elements.

Second, the Twins have been hugely handicapped by the unbalanced schedule. The Twins get KC, Detroit, Chisox, and Cleveland either 9 or 10 times a year. That's almost half of the home schedule. And with the possible exception of the White Sox, none of these teams are a good draw. If the Twins could substitute three more games against the Yankees and Boston every year for some of those dreadful KC or Detroit matchups, attendance would go up.

Third, the Twins are a victim of their own success. The Twins have run away with the division in two of the last three years, thereby eliminating all sense of anticipation. On my site during the season, I tackled this very issue. If the Twins were in the NL Central as opposed to the AL Central, number one they'd have a lot better draws and number two they'd have pennant races. They may not win every year, like they've done the last three years, but there'd be more excitement in the division.

Yes, the Twins have been hurt by the strike and by bad teams. But, I contend that most fans have forgotten that due to an unprecedented streak of success in franchise history. Some of these other issues have hampered the Twins far worse. Further, these stadium fights are never pretty. They are ugly in other towns, too. That is the nature of the beast. The Twins don't owe me an apology. I'd much rather get one from MLB for the inequities of the unbalanced schedule and choosing the Brewers and not the Twins for inclusion in the NL Central.

http://stickandballguy.blogspot.com

Also the Twins not doing things for the fans to really show they are committed to not just making the playoffs but ADVANCING in the playoffs. If they were to make a serious commitment, not neccessarily spending $100 million, but maybe get one really good SS or one really good 3B! Or maybe even signing Santana to a multi-year deal! These moves would signal that willingness of the owernship and team to make up for the rough ride they've forced the fans to endure and I think the fans would respond in kind.

1) I'd rather watch a game on TV than sit in the upper deck "cheap seats" most of the time. While I do sit in the cheap seats 5-6 times a season, I'd mostly rather stay home and spend money on beer. College students have to make tough choices...

2) I don't want to see the Royals or the Tigers unless El Presidente is pitching. Ditto Devil Rays.

3) A new stadium would get me personally to the park twice or three times as often.

4) I strongly agree with an earlier post in that the Twins need to market to the casual fan -- While the on-field product is very good, the overall Metrodome experience sucks.

5) This year and next year are the Twins' best chances to make a serious run at the title. Pohlad's commitment to maintaining the status quo in salary terms doesn't exactly result in a lot of hype -- where's the Jack Morris signing? What would do most to boost attendance, in my opinion, is the Twins knocking off a big market team in the playoffs. The Red Sox or Yankees would do nicely.

6) If you see a short scruffy kid sitting down with his hat over his face during "Proud to be an American," that's me. Sweet zombie Jesus I hate that song.

Batgirl: Bringing Twins fans together since the end of The Tremendous Sucking

>>Sweet zombie Jesus

I hope you don't mind, but I'm stealing this.

I think there are a lot of factors that go into the lack of attendance. I would guess that there's no one reason for everyone but that a multitude of reasons. Take a few that aren't over the attempted murder of the franchise, a few that hate the Dome, a few that don't feel there's any one to watch because we haven't signed a big name free agent, a few that feel that Pohlad isn't committed to winning and a few that fit into multiple categories and it all adds up.

I guess, really, what I'm trying to say is that a marketing campaign, and one year, aren't going to fix anything. If they really, truly, want to boost attendance they're going to have to address multiple issues over time. A new stadium isn't a magic bullet, just one piece of the puzzle. But, without a commitment to put in the effort to boost attendance, then it's not going to matter.

Hopefully, someone in the Twins organization will realize that they can't sit back and say "Well, we're winning, where are the fans?" It's not the FANS obligation to fill the seats, it's the Twins obligation to give them a reason to want to fill the seats.

I have posted before that the new slogan should be get to know them...again. it took us a long time to reg. attend games after Kirby and we don't mind the dome as much but just when you start to get behind one group half are gone.

I agree totally. One more note about the Dome:

Semi-cool place to see a game if there are less than 12,000 people there. You can finagle good seats, create space, and make the best of it.

Any more than that, and the lousy corner sightlines, 35+ seat rows, lousy legroom, crowded concourses, and inadequate bathrooms come into play, and it becomes a hassle just to show up.

It's slightly different at a Vikes game because you expect to stand most of the time and you expect to be pressed against other people in the name of Purpletude.

Mike&Jane, I miss the Get To Know Em days too. Even the Gotta See Em days.

The biggest reason for the lack of attedance is the fact that baseball is not meant to be played in a Giant Inflatable Toilet. And as long as Gov. Pawlenty is in office, we probobly won't get any new stadiums built, as he refused to "raise" taxes.

The "Batgirl Territory" thread down a ways does indeed have an excellent discussion - was tempted to jump in myself but I don't even know what to think.

Batgirl and others are absolutely right - the ownership here has treated us terribly for years - nobody's even mentioned the "let's move to Charlotte" gambit of 1998 or so, even before the contraction fiasco. I freely admit that even though I've gone to 15-25 games a year for 20 years, in recent seasons I've held my nose every time I've paid my way in because I don't like to put money in Pohlad's pocket. If I don't sit in the cheap seats by the right field corner, I'd much rather get a previously purchased primo seat from a street speculator than a fresh one from the box office.

Two things annoy me no end when this topic comes up as it always does in all forms of media: First, that this is a "small market" - what? Greater Twin Cities has to be 13th or 14th biggest in U.S., just about the same size as Seattle. I'll accept "medium market", but "small market" never. You think WCCO is paying "small market" money for the broadcast rights? Twice the phrase popped up in different Twins articles in the Pioneer Press this morning, which makes the P-P beat writer nothing but an enabler.

Second, I cannot accept the premise that Carl Pohlad is absolutely entitled to a reliable positive return on his investment. The man's a forking billionaire. He can lose $10 or $20 million a year on this team every year until he's 115 and never even notice the loss. If he doesn't like it he can sell for what he can get and cut his losses. There's nothing that says he has to make every investment a winner, but a lifetime of sharp dealing has hardened him in the habit. If he's in baseball for the money, which he most certainly is not, he's an idiot. If he's not in it for the money, then he's got to raise his eyes from the bottom line, which then simply becomes a distraction.

Yeah I know where do I get off talking about how someone else minds his dough. Pohlad's in baseball the same way you and I are in whatever we spend our money on that we don't really need. The proper basis of comparison is not the banking business, it's horse racing. Fewer than 10 percent of race horses pay their way - that is, earn enough in winnings to support the cost of keeping them in training and competition. People own race horses because they love the sport, they like being an insider of the game, they can afford the expenses, and they can write off the losses. When they can't afford it, they get out. There will never be a time when Pohlad cannot afford an $80 million payroll for the Twins.

The difficult question for the Twins is how, in light of the above, do they crack the 1.9 million fans barrier? That's what they've drawn for the last three years running. They've tried everything but honesty. They claim and we believe that this is a "small market" and that the Twins "can't afford" to compete for the best players. I'm certainly not suggesting that promiscuous free-agent spending is the course they should follow, but the idea that a few million bucks makes it impossible to keep Koskie or Ortiz or even Hawkins around is absolutely ridiculous.

Meanwhile we have the Cambria Starting Lineup and the Verizon Call to the Bullpen and in-play adverts on the radio every third pitch (Hey Dazzle where's my Mankato Harley T-Shirt? Sorry I snorted my Land-o-Lakes milk on it at your last lame joke Gordo you hopeless shill) and every square inch of the Dome covered in advertising. Aaarrgh.

I'm afraid I have nothing prescriptive to offer, but I think I've figured out part of the answer to why 3 million were happy enough to show up in 1988, but 2 million remains today an elusive dream. It has nothing to do with baseball or the Pohlads, but with the Twin Cities and the way people live. This area has grown a lot in the intervening 17 years, but all that growth has been in the burbs. Jobs, too. I'd guess that fully two-thirds of the metro population seldom-to-never goes to Minneapolis. Going to a baseball game for such people is a huge pain in the ass, or so they think. Ten years of the owner's complaints about the stadium doesn't help much, either.

I'm sorry so many people are ragging our AL Central opponents, but I suppose that's a factor. Every one of those teams has at least a few good players and is fun to watch, and one of the most entertaining if painful games last year was Santana's brilliant two-hit loss to Det (Munson HR in the 2nd was all the scoring) in front of 21,600. You sneer at our AL Central friends, you miss a lot of good baseball.

Batgirl's suggestion - that the quickest way to win back the butts and bucks of the nonaddicted baseball fan (most of us here seem to be beyond hope, but there aren't that many of us) would be to issue a simple and graceful apology. "We're sorry about the contraction thing. What were we thinking? And the Charlotte ploy. That was just for the legislature, heh. And the strike. All my fault. And collusion before that. My idea, too. I'm really, really sorry, and we want you back right here at the Dome. It's not much I know but we'll make the best of it together. When you see Hunter batting with Mauer on first and Ford on third with the Twins down a run in the eighth, you don't even really notice the Dome." And you know, you really don't.

Dear cxpat,

Your last paragraph made me all warm and fuzzy inside. And I couldn't agree more.

Sincerely,
Meghan

Uh oh, cxpat. Did Morneau strike out?

Brian

I'll agree with TD on the attendance thing. My introduction to the Metrodome was at a Royals game in 2000 and they had about 11,000 listed in attendance and maybe half as many butts in the seats.

I had a great time. My cousin and I had nearly five full rows to ourselves--in section 131. I could see just about everything that was happening on the field and the atmosphere was just so...relaxed. And comfortable. Kind of like a minor league game, which given the product on the field didn't seem too far-fetched. The Twins lost of course (as they tended to in those days), but I didn't mind; I had a good time.

I've been to about a half-dozen Twins games since (I live in North Carolina, so the commute prevents more visits), all of which with at least twice the attendance, and none of which had half the atmosphere of that first game. It always seemed stuffier and smokier than before and just a little less fun (though there were some wonderfully fun--and funny--moments), even though the team became more fun to watch and follow.

If they can build a place, indoor or outdoor, FuzzyTurf or real grass, that can come close to duplicating the atmosphere of that first game I attended, with a full crowd? Hell, I'd send money from North Carolina to see it built.

On the "Get To Know 'Em/Gotta See 'Em" theme, I thought that the Twins should have ripped-of the Royals' tag line after their 2001 season: "You Gotta Love These Guys." Add a Minnesota accent to that and it's down-right goofy.

The Goodwill(tm) is out there to be had. All that winning of late, all those young, good-natured players coming up, the Twins ought to be able to wipe the slate clean.

But I believe BatGirl is right - "marketing" isn't the way to do it. Or if it is, coming up with a random new slogan every year isn't the way to do it. "This is Twins Country" is the slogan you use in Iowa and the Dakotas to grow the fan base out there. Maybe if the Twins marketing was connected to the kind of team this is - young, high-turnover, lots of kids breaking into the majors and playing championship ball - it would make a difference. "The Twins Future Is Now" or "There's More Where That Came From" maybe. But "Twins Country"? That could be any team's slogan, and a slogan that can mean anything actually means nothing.

But my point is that the team needs to be more careful about how its off-the-field moves play in the public and the press. When a championship team is seen to be dinkering around with its star players over relatively small change, and then losing them, this prevents the adhesion of The Goodwill(tm). I know there's a limit to what the team can control, what with players' agents getting involved and leaking, but the GM's office could take a lesson from how Apple or the White House manage news and information to bolster their public image.

With all the winning and all the great players, people want to feel good about the Twins. We want to have mass quantities of The Goodwill(tm). But the team's business staff constantly puts out these vibes of cheapness and whining when they should be focused on a positive message of promoting young players outsmarting the opponents. Because of the way the Twins react, holding steady at a $50 million payroll is seen to be a sign of cheapness that puts the team at risk. But there's no reason it couldn't be a sign of a confident team being managed with smarts in the fans' interest.

"Raise the payroll to $60 million? Then we'd have to raise ticket prices, and we don't want to do that to our fans when we have the talent to win the division right now. It's not how much you spend, it's how well you spend it, and with Ron Gardenhire in charge the Twins are going to win a lot of games next year." Try something like that instead if, "We don't have enough fans and we come from a small city and $50 million is all we can afford and even then we're losing money and it sucks to be us so would you build us a free stadium, please, because Bud Selig is starting to let teams move for real."

It's not really a question of what the team does, it's a question of how it is seen to be doing it.

Also, getting a new owner will help. The instant that Carl Pohlad no longer owns the team, years of pent-up Goodwill(tm) will unpent. There's really no way to forgive Carl's turn-of-the-century shenanigans. Bribing the Commissioner with a sweetheart loan, in violation of baseball rules, in order to get him to persuade the other owners to kick in about $4 million each to eliminate the team, well, some stains don't wash away.

There is some goodwill out there, but it's not going to be restored until the Pohlad's go. As long as they own the team, it's like buying soup from Judas: you want to buy it because you like it and you're hungry, but . . .

As others have pointed out, there is the stadium contradiction. To politicians and fans, the Twins brass says, "Metrodome absolutely sucks. We need a new stadium." To the fans, the Twins marketing folks turn around and say, "Come on out and see the Twins - it'll be fun!" There's a problem there.

Then there is the perception, fair or not (I say it's eminently fair) that the Pohlad family is a bunch of cheapskates. TR works the hair off of his head to develop great players only to see them go to better serve Carl's pocketbook.

As a banking mogul, Carl may be a genius. As a baseball owner, somebody forgot to tell him that sometimes you have to spend money to make money. Owners of other teams have long recognized that you have to gamble on procured talent in hopes that it will produce championship teams and the revenue that results. If it puts the team in the red for a year or two, so be it. The Pohlad's should absolutely make this gamble because they're sitting on the best GM in the game.

I say - emphatically - that until the Twins have new ownership they cannot build the kind of broad-based, passionate following the Vikings now enjoy for reasons that often escape me.

I agree with all who said that the dome is the reason I don't go to more Twins games. I love baseball. I love the Twins. I hate the dome. It was built for football and has terrible sight lines for baseball. The new turf is better than the old carpet, but it's still artificial. I would love to have a new stadium, but I have kids in school and I would much rather see tax money spent on their education than on a stadium that would never pay for itself. I don't think we'll see a new stadium in my lifetime unless Old Man Pohlad sells the team to someone who cares about the community.

By the way, it is my foot you don't see right next to Goober's head in the picture montage of Twins Fest. I walked by just as this picture was taken. I also pointed the Mauer Death Strip out to my son and wondered why they can't replace that with dirt like they have around the bases.

I agree completely with cxpat's last paragraph. In a good game, I don't notice the Dome. I've heard there are some areas of the Dome that have some really bad views of the game. But I don't sit there.

I suppose it's because I've always grown up with the Dome. I think it's all the complaining (justifiable, granted) that has been done about the Dome that makes many people not want to go.

Just Beth

Well I never come out of the closet, BG, but for this I'll make an exception BG:

BRAVO!

The problem lies not in the well-intentioned marketing folks, it lies with the richest man in Minnesota (or last time I checked anyway) who continues to add to his reputation as the grand-master-scrooge by using his own bullhorn/hack/scribe friend (ElSid) to get the 'masses' to build him a new stadium.

(BTW, Sid has no conflicts of interests - after all those old enough to remember will surely know he had nothing to do with the current dome's spot down by the Strib building. *cough*)

I see a common theme here, and I would like to add my two cents. The trouble comes from the top.

I have always felt that Mr. Pohlad is a good businessman; I have *never* felt that he was a fan of the game or of this team. And the fans are smart enough to sense this. Every decision he makes is made because it may be good for business. It rarely seems like he makes decisions because they may be good for the team.

For example, it was recently reported that he took Corey Koskie out for lunch to thank him for his years of service, blah, blah, blah. That's nice. Why didn't he take him out to lunch before he left the in an effort to woo him to stay? (He may have and it just wasn't reported...but I doubt it.)

Example two: he and his family were noticably absent in New York during the playoffs last year. He may have had very good reasons for that, but I wonder...does he even *like* this team?

And, when Mrs. Pohlad passed away a year ago, it was widely reported that she was the true Twins fan in the family. That's too bad. Now that she's gone, what's going to happen next?

And I'm not sure that when he does go to sell this team he will be really concerned about whether the new owner will keep the team in the Twin Cities. And that's scary. And sad.

Personally, I would respond better if the owner was a more visible advocate of the team. He should go to more games, treat his players better, and respect the fans more. We're smarter than he gives us credit for.

Also, as far as the small-market thing: it's sad but true. The Twin Cities and Denver are the only cities of similar populations that support all four of the major league sports as well as a major university. Which, therefore, limits the amount of "entertainment dollars" available. All other cities with four teams and a university have much larger populations.

k-bro

I agree in part with those who say that it has a lot to do with the Twins ownership. We all know Pohlad's history. We know that he's a ruthless businessman whose primary (if not sole) goal is to make money. Come on, he would sell the Twins in an instant if they weren't making him profits. The only reason he went for contraction is that it was an even sweeter deal than keeping the team (and more than any prospective owner would be willing to pay). And yet for years they've wanted us to believe that poor Carl can't spend more on the Twins (or a baseball stadium that would attract more people) because he's already losing money on them. Minnesotans aren't generally stupid - they can smell a rat. Pohlad spends what he does on the team in order to maximize profits. He could spend a little more (or a little less) and still pull a profit. But he's dedicated to making the most money with the cheapest product he can. Pohlad is the Wal-Mart of sports owners. How would people respond if Wal-Mart asked local residents to raise taxes in order to fund their next store's construction costs? If it were me, I'd say 'screw Wal-Mart.' Unlike a retail chain, though, my loyalty and love for the Twins keeps me comin' back for more, even if I have to secretly give Pohlad the finger as I purchase my dome tickets.

However, it's not that attendance is low because people simply don't like Pohlad. It's subtler than that. Sports fans think of their support as an investment - they want to believe that the time and money they spend cheering for their team will yield returns. The Twins ownership, however, doesn't exactly generate much consumer confidence. They're damn lucky they've stumbled upon such management and "product". But until they're convinced that they're not going to be Enronned, a lot of potential Twins fans will stay lukewarm at best.

I think the best way to increase attendance is to demonstrate that the organization is committed to winning rather than to putting as much money as possible in the owner's pocket. Consider how successful the MN Wild have been in their short history. You go to the Ex and you realize that this team is run by hockey fans, and you feel like they aren't simply trying to milk their fans for as much money as possible. Instead, you feel like they are trying to balance the desire for profit with the recognition that the fans' overall experience is crucial to the long-term success of the organization. Because of this, I suspect the Wild will be able to weather the current lockout storm raging in the NHL. Such a fiasco would probably kill the Twins if it happened this season.

I don't think it helps that everyone knows that a) the no-contraction agreement expires in '06, and b) Pohlad would still take any insane payoff deal that came his way without 5 seconds of regard for the team or the fans.

As a season ticket holder, one of the curious things I find is the absence of minority attendance at the games. We have a significant Hispanic population in the metro area and they should be well represented at every game given the popularity of the game in South and Central America and given the number and quality of Hispanic players on the team. But I am not advocating "Latin American Night" at the Dome. I'd like to see an infusion of Hispanic culture at every game and maybe games at the Dome could become more like the beisbol in Caracas - a less "slick" product, but a lot more fun.

Ok, I've got to say the whole contraction thing and threatening to move the team, yeah, that blows. But the whole idea that Pohlad should (or could) lose "$10 or $20 million a year" is just absurd. Granted, I'm an unabashed materialistic capitalist, but still. What's wrong with developing talent from within? What's wrong with trying to keep a modest payroll, keep your losses low or (God forbid) break even, and still win? No, we haven't won a World Series in 13 years. Houston's never won one. Neither has Texas (and they signed a $250 million free agent!) nor Colorado or a whole host of other teams. I'd be curious to know what the Twins payroll was (and how it compared to the rest of the league) in '91 and '87. You don't get to BE the richest man in Minnesota by deciding that it's ok to lose $10 to $20 million a year.

I agree that the way they spin the payroll is horrible. And really, one of the big draws, for me, is that this team IS made up of a bunch of young talent. Ok, not counting Grampa Mulholland. So, yeah, a little marketing and a little PR would help.

I hear a lot of "I hate the Dome. We need a new stadium. Oh, uh, no, I don't want to pay for it." Uh ... ok. So then, we have a problem. Why shouldn't Pohlad want a publicly funded stadium? That is, unfortunately, the norm in this business. It's not like he's breaking new ground here. Do I agree with it? No, not really. But then, I don't agree with a lot of things that are the norm but that's the way things are. Unfortunately, until there are no more cities willing and eager to build a stadium for a team, then it's going to be a fact of life. Kind of like, until there are no more teams willing to pay over $2 million to a 9-13 pitcher with a 5.34 ERA then that's what we have to do.

So, then, what do we do? We continue to funnel the big money of Dome revenues (concessions, luxury suites) to the Vikings, continue to hate the Dome, continue to refuse to build a baseball stadium, continue to enjoy some of the lowest ticket prices in baseball and then continue to bitch about how the team won't spend any money.

It's not all about the Twins. I agree there's plenty to complain about, but it's not all on them.

First of all, I thank my lucky stars every day that I have the opportunity from April to October to leave work and walk down to the Dome and unwind after a grueling day at work, sit with my headphones on, scorecard in hand and watch a professional baseball team I love. That is my relaxation and enjoyment. I went to a ton of games last year, my ticket stub count (at least the ones I could find) was well over 25. I don't care if I have to sit in a lousy f-in dome or get to sit outside under an open sky (don't get me wrong the latter would be more preferable).

I think we forget that we have a great thing with the Twins and I wouldn't trade them for any other team. I guarantee you that after a game at (for example I don't mean to bash here) Yankee Stadium, you won't get the chance to have A-Rod sign your scorecard in the parking lot or get a smile and a wave from Jeter. I have gotten my scorecard signed by Corey Koskie and numerous other Twins, I have gotten a smile and a wave from Lew Ford after a game. What the organization needs to do is focus on the fact that the Twins are fans of their fans. I don't know how many times I've heard, "That Michael Cuddyer, he's a swell guy. . ." or "Justin Morneau was so nice to my son, he gave him batting tips and actually talked to him for longer than 5 seconds" Remember that warm fuzzy, teary eyed feeling you got after reading the full page ad the guys put out after they lost? Or when Corey Koskie did the same after his decision to leave? That's what makes them OUR boys and us THEIR fans. I think if more people realized this, they'd get more fans in the seats.

Sorry I'm a little sentimental after Twinsfest.

Good points, HK. No apologies neccessary.

There are, of course, a number of us who cannot attending Twins games no matter how hard we try. And the recent winning has had an enormous effect on US. But beyond the core fan attendance of 1.8 mil or so, there remains an huge group of people who cannot forgive contraction, the Sucking Time, the promise of the Twins as a "gift", the Triad fiasco, or the strike. Their memories go back to '91 and '87, and it will take success at that level to win them back. While those two championships created an enormous investment in good will, the events of subsequent years (strike, sucking, Triad, and contraction) amounted to a more substantial withdrawl of good will than those champoinships ever created. And those fans cannot forgive the heavy-handed attempts to force them to pay for a stadium they will not use. For them, getting to the playoffs is not enough. They are not schooled in the MLB playoffs, but rather in the NFL, NHL, or NBA playoffs, where getting there is a sign of competence, not excellence.

In the end, Pohlad made one of the colossal business bluders in recent baseball history. He decided that making the Twins suck would force the state to build him a stadium in order to compete. He was wrong, and the entire franchise has been infected by that decision ever since. Sure, WE love the Twins; how could we not? But for the casual fan, it will take far more than competence to get them back. It will take a championship -- and not just of the Comedy Central variety.

mmmarkiep -

I like some of your arguments, but much of what you're saying rests on the assumption that we should believe Carl when he says he's losing $10 - $15 million per year.

You can look up quotes from owners in the early 1900's saying they're losing money. Owners are constantly bitching about this but it's enormously difficult to believe teams are experiencing negative cash flow every year and keeping the gates open. The Twins books are not audited by anyone and even if they were we all know what audits can be worth.

Besides, to repeat myself, you sometimes have to spend money to make it. Make an investment in retaining the talent you've skillfully acquired and developed in hopes that it will generate both winning teams and greater revenue. Sacky made a great point about demonstrating commitment to winning. That's what the Twins need to put butts in the seats.

Right, as usual, Batgirl!! And your readers make excellent points too. Frankly, I don't think marketing can be expected to fill the ball park, given the larger issues surrounding MLB in general and this franchise in particular.

Best thing to happen to the Twins would be for someone like Glen Taylor to purchase the franchise. The Pohlads have poisoned the environment fatally and permanently when they tried to sell out the team for cash. Shameless! Because of that, it will be well nigh impossible to over opposition to public support for a new ball park, a patk which is sorley needed.

A popular local owner (not a Red Combs-like carpetbagger!) with sufficient financial strength could change the environment dramatically. Hmmm. What you about you, Batgirl? I understand that you are a best-selling novelist in your other life, and we all know how rich people like John Grisham are. Then Team Batgirl would take on a whole different meaning.

Roy Hobbs

Goober, in his infinite wisdom, is right. All of us here luuuurve the Twins and would buy tickets in hell to go see them. Batgirl adores the scrappy bunch of little leaguers (indeed, the Get To Know 'Em promotion was genius) and Batgirl feels that the one million fans that we've lost would feel the same way if we'd give them a chance. Indeed, it's those million we're talking about here--not us. (Batgirl would go see the Twins even if we weren't winning, because, you know, Lew Ford!) And is it an apology Batgirl wants? Not really. She wants Carl Pohlad to do something grand for the community he's been #@#$ing around for years. She wants him to build a new stadium.

Great discussion. I agree with those that say that the Twins need to re-commit themselves to the community before the community will embrace them. If this means signing a five year lease at the Metrodome, and providing a commitment to a $50MM payroll, and providing in writing to the State a refusal to participate in MLB's "contraction" scheme, then that's what they have to do. I get the feeling that they would be rewarded for a very minimal investment. (besides, they can write it all off as "operating losses" and get a mondo tax break!)

Batgirl, in her even more infinite wisdom, is also right. I think Carl has two choices if he wants a viable franchise in this state: (1) build a stadium himself, or (2) invest in winning another World Series (and chances are, we'll build it for him). And yes, apologizing for contraction would be a nice start.

Why is it that every time I think of contraction, I want to eat my own liver?

As Batgirl hinted in her post the Twins need to make a real statement about what has happened in the last 5 years. They need to come out make a statement admitting that what they did was wrong.

As an outsider looking in at the Twins, I get a feeling from team that they think you should just be happy you have a team and anything they do should be okay. And if you really want to keep your team you better build them a stadium PDQ or you will lose them.

I will admitt, if I lived in Minn, I would have been through with this team after all of the contraction stuff. As much as I love baseball, I would not be able to support a team that doesn't support me.

O, learned and wizened Batgirl, how much you have to offer this clubhouse with your learning and wisdom.

Carl does need to buck up - the Twank need a new home. I've lived out in San Francisco for a couple years now, and let me tell you, I HATE the Giants (except former Giants AJ and Joe Nasty), but I'll go to SBC Park any time I can get tickets. Most everybody in this town will.

And I think the idea of "investment in the community" is one worth discussing. We're talking about Minnesota here - provincial, homespun Minnesota. Minnesotans love locals - love other Minnesotans. Minnesota is a state where Prep Bowl Heroes are forever entitled to personalized barstools.

I think the team should somehow incentivize new team members to move to the state, and to own property and businesses. They all have a lot of liquid capital... if Twins quite literally invested in the community, became - at least in deed and title - locals, I think people would embrace them a lot more warmly, and support them more in terms of licensing, tickets, and merchandise.

5 words solve all of the Twins attendance problems.

"Carl sells or Carl dies"

Sad, but true.

WIZENED?

"It's sort of like when Aunt Sally kicked Uncle Henry in the nads and then wondered why he didn't come round no more."

Batgirl, what family did YOU grow up in?

I agree the contraction stunt was nasty, but I pretty much got over it after 4 years of entertaining baseball.

Yes, the Dome is a bummer - my biggest disappointment is that you can't see the field from the concourse, like in most stadiums. But it's still major league baseball, and in April, May, and September here it can be nice to slip indoors for a game.

I think the biggest thing keeping people away is ownership CONTINUING to try and kill the team for cash. Why keep "getting to know 'em" when you can be pretty much guaranteed that the team facing the Yankees in the post-season is going to be a bunch of greenhorns and slammin' Torii Hunter?

Imagine if Pohlad wasn't a cheapskate, if we still had LaTroy setting up last year, Eric Milton, Eddie G., Doug M. sharing 1st base, Kenny Rogers, A.J. backing up the phenom, heck, even imagine that management hadn't let David Ortiz slip away.

I understand where you're coming from, BadAndy. A lot of what you're saying hinges on the belief that the entire organization (and really, all of baseball) is lying about the Twins losing money.

As for winning teams putting butts in the seats, I stand by the fact that three straight division titles have done nothing of the sort. In fact, in 2003, the very year AFTER they narrowly missed going to the World Series by losing in the ALCS, they only drew a little over 21,000 more fans all year. So, you'll have to forgive me when I say I don't believe it. Or have we become the kind of fans that demand a World Series or else it's not really winning and therefore not worth going to the park?

I'd like to see a public/private partnership to build a stadium. Of course, I'd like to win a gazillion dollars and build the mmmarkiep Twins ballpark myself. If monkeys flew out of my ass, I could do it on ticket sales and endorsments alone. (Hi, I've got monkeys flying out of my ass, but nothing heals the hurt like Preparation H!) Um, seriously, I'm not sure why Pohlad should pony up for a stadium all by his lonesome. No one else does. And, to play Devil's advocate here, we're talking about the city that built a stadium for football, gave the majority of the profits from it to the football team, and then said "Oh, yeah, and uh, you Twins can play there, too." So, I'm sure there's a little bit of hurt feelings there, too. All for a team that has actually WON a couple of championships. I'd like to see a creative proposal for a new stadium. The citizens of San Antonio didn't want to build the Spurs a new arena until they found out the taxes would come from rental cars and hotels. Not many locals rent cars or stay in hotels so it was something they could live with. I don't know that Minneapolis is a big enough tourist draw to generate that kind of revenue though.

Maybe the city will have to relearn the lesson taught by the North Stars all over again. That's unfortunate, but possible. The lesson being that if you're a pro sports franchise, you'll never be homeless. Hell, someone even wanted the freakin' Expos for cryin' out loud.

Oops... I meant wonderful. The word "wise" was bouncing around in my head, and 'wizened' came out. Like writing in front of the 6 o'clock news, and using the words 'catastrophe', 'devestation', and 'murder' a few times too many.

Sheesh... I generally only have to make this particular sort of apology to my girlfriend.

It would help if somebody proposed a ballpark that didn't cost close to $500 million, too. Damn the amenities and (gasp) the retractable roof! Chicago's climate isn't significantly different from Minnesota's during the extreme months of the baseball season and they do just fine roofless.

Click my name to look at a park I would love to see here. It's the doomed Expos doomed plan for Labatt's Field, and though the proposal is 5 years old, at the time in only called for $200 million-- Canadian. A gorgeous, scaled-down ballpark for that price? People would go for it, I think.

You forego the retractable roof you make a huge mistake. Chicago has the kind of fans that will go to a game on a cold damp night. Minneapolis doesn't.

Don't you think that the YEARS that the Twins management has spend bashing the dome is a KEY reason why no one attends games at said dome?

I have mixed feelings about the Twins and how they could draw a little better and some other jottings and rants.

1. The Dome is the biggest impediment, but we all know that, so moving on.

2. Stop enforcing the reserved seating so strictly. Back in the stinkfest 90s, if my buddies and I had nothing to do for the night, on a spur decision we'd head down to the dome and buy some upperdeck seats and move down to the vacant seats by the baselines after the end of the third inning. The seats weren't being used, and if the owners actually did show up we were happy to move. I don't know if it was Sep. 11th or if Pohlad had a few other geriatric buddies that needed some employment, but the Dome's "seating assistants/nazis" have grown by the hundreds in the last few years. Now since us upperdeckies are relegated to the upperdeck for the entire game, we would rather pull our TVs outside on our porches and watch the game at home. I know that it's not much revenue either way and that you want to discourage the free rider situation, but the five of us would go to 20 games a year and knew other that did that as well.

3. The Vikings will always be the number one draw in the TC. This is football town first and I don't think even a new ballpark would change that. Of course there always is the sports dichotomy of football = cretins, baseball = sports epicurists. I of course appreciate the Vikes as much as anyone else, but do prefer baseball and understand that it will always be a second draw at best here in the Twin Cities. However, there are some baseball towns out there. I'd argue that NY, Boston, Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland, and St. Louis all put baseball ahead of football. But, here, I can't see it happening. THere's too much of a purple pride bias.

4. I like the scrappiness "small market" label on the Twins. I root hardest for the Twins and the T'Wolves b/c historically they have been scrappy overachievers. I love the ball that the Twins play - legging out extra base hits, stealing, defense, pitching, and small ball in general. I love the David v. Golliath matchup vs the Yankees we've had in the playoffs the last few years and really wouldn't like to see the Twins spend a lot of money on a Hypothetical Belltran, Randy Johnson, or Pedro to push them over the top in the playoffs. I do however like retaining the talent we groomed on the farm even if it does bump the payroll, i.e. Santana and Koskie.

5. I think one of the best things that the Twins have done in recent years is fostering the growth of the Rowdy Left Field "Bleachers" section. This is my preferred seating option at the dome, and though I understand that baseball is a family game, I feel that families can have the rest of the entire stadium. The Dome's left field and any new stadium proposals should be reserved for the bourgeoise, beer drinking, politely profane fans.

6. Baseball owes me no apology, us fans are a victim of our enthusiasm for the sport. As long as we are willing to pay $75 bucks a seat for season tickets, by tickets from a scalper for $500, drink $6 beers, plan our vacations around visiting ballparks, pay thousands of dollars for a McGwire homerun ball, and propose to our spouses in stadiums, owners and players will both grub for more and more of our money. Besides tell me you haven't enjoyed the Twins run in the central for the last three years or that '91 series. Yogi put it best, baseball's been berry berry good to me.

7. I agree with an earlier poster about the nauseating affect that "I'm proud to be an American," has on me. Play the anthemn and 7th inning stretch, but just b/c I don't wear a pin of the flag on my hat or sweater or sing that stupid country song doesn't mean I don't love my country.

3 dreaded words to every Minnesotan's ears that would provide oodles of money for a new ballyard:

Tax. On. Clothes.

BitchSoxPride,

Ilk

In regards to the retractable roof: don't forget that in Chicago they don't really have to worry about playing the World Series in a blizzard.

>>propose to our spouses in stadiums

Never understood this. Isn't the game kind of anti-climactic after that? And ... what if she says no?

Perhaps they had to fire their old marketing squad after they proposed that "Gotta Get Rid of 'Em" was the only appropriate slogan left.

TWINS TERRITORY FOREVER!

--Goober

maybe a dome-rockin michael paloma concert would bring people's goodwill back. Not. :P

i think i might rather listen to a "proud to be american" MARATHON than ever have to look at michael paloma's dang ad in the dome again. or hear his "music" on those ads they play at vikes and twins games. it's really unfortunate.

>>Gotta Get Rid of 'Em

Heheheheh.

Hey, maybe we be the bigger person, figuratively speaking, and make the first move by approving a stadium bill for the Twins. You know, show them we're willing to move on. We're willing to show that, as a community, we want them to stay. Show them that they're wanted and loved. Instead of essentially saying we don't give a rat's ass whether they leave for a city willing to build a ballpark.

Yeah, yeah, I know. In this day and age, everyone wants the other side to make the first move. But hey, I'm an idealist.

OK. Most of my points have already been made, so I won't beat the dead horse. But there are two other things that I believe are at least a small factor: Dick and Bert. We have two of the very best TV announcers around. And our TV ratings are great. I've watched a lot of baseball from around the country on my satellite dish and most other organizations have awful announcers. I know for me, when mulling over a day at the dome or a day with Dick and Bert, I'll pick Bert and his goofiness a lot of the time.

maybe we could all sell those really valuable-looking 'stadium for minnesota' baseball cards we got at twinsfest, and use the proceeds to actually build it.
;)

To increase attendance, what the Twins really need to do is improve the quality of opposition. In the past four years, only my beloved Indians have exceeded 2 million in attendance and that was in 2001-2002. With the unbalanced schedule, Central teams play a whopping 76 games against each other and let's face it ... these teams aren't even exciting their own home fans.

"We have two of the very best TV announcers around."

This comment could start a fight in every baseball city.

I mean Vin Scully, Harry Kalas, Michael Kay, Gary Thorne, Skip Caray.... There a lot of real good announcers.

Now if you want to talk about Joe Buck and the most annoying man in the world Tim McCarver, and the terrible Chris Berman I will agree that a screaming 5 year old is better then these 3 clowns.

And now for something completely different.

I'm sure that this year we'll reach the 2 million mark so I guess we can call it a successful year. tWINs.

And now for something completely different.

I'm sure that this year we'll reach the 2 million mark so I guess we can call it a successful year. tWINs.

Speaking of ballparks... have you guys been to a lot of them? Which ones are your favorites? The only one I've been to (other than the Dome) is Anaheim for the playoffs a few yrs ago (which was disappointing, but I did get denny hocking to sign my homer hanky, woo).

SOMEBODY please go down to the anagrams and help poor mmmarkiep?

Spike: They had Hispanic Heritage Night last year, Sept 14, Santana brilliant for his 18th win, Bitch Sox the victim. A: 22,145. Lots of Venezuelan flags on 1st-base side. Blanco had a big night, too. Most Spanish-speakers in Minn. are Mexican, and although I don't really know, I've the notion that Latin Americans are generally somewhat indifferent about Latinos from other countries. Have the Twins even had a Mexican player since the immortal Houston Jimenez? Baseball's not as big in Mexico as it is in Carribean and Venezuela, but I agree with you that the Twins should market hard to Mexican communities here. As for other minorities, there usually seems to be a good representation of African-Americans in right field, which is good to see.

Jianfu: Thanks for the pic of Labatt's Field, it looks great and KC-ish.

Brian: Yes, struck out looking on borderline pitch, but homered earlier in game.

Vince, Cowdisciple: Ditto on the song. I'm proud too, but it's unseemly to crow about it.

Meghan: Thanks.

Mmmarkiep: Didn't mean to suggest that Pohlad should lose $10-20 million a year on the Twins. Just pointed out that he could if he wanted to without feeling any pinch at all. He's one of the several wealthiest owners in baseball. If you have to spend to win (debatable premise anyway after a point), and you can spend but won't, why are you even in the game? Just to stay in the owners' club on cheap dues? Data incomplete on '87 Twins, but they seem to have been a low-salary team, bottom third say. Team payrolls ranged from $7 to 15 million then. Note the narrow spread. In '91, Twins were at solid midpack, about $22 million. Spreads similarly narrow that year too, probably more so. My how things have changed.

1) My ballpark history is heavy on structures that have subsequently been blown up (I've actually been to not one but two defunct stadiums in Philadelphia), but I am lucky enough to have been to Camden Yards, which is truly a lovely, lovely place to watch baseball. I'd say it was the best park I've ever been to, but given the competition, that's not really saying much.

2) I dislike the unbalanced schedule, and I'm sick of interleague play, which was invented for those three or four cities that have interleague rivalries, and the rest of us just have to live with the absurdity. "We now interrupt your regularly scheduled pennant race to bring you a meaningless series with the San Diego Padres." Sure, that'll fill the seats.

One thing the team could do to increase attendance is sell network TV broadcast rights cheap and show all the games. I didn't really become a Twins fan until I had the chance to watch them on (cable) TV every day for a season... Twins games would certainly beat the crap out of other channel 45 programming ratings-wise. It seems to me that the fanbase gains would offset the loss of a few broadcasting contract dollars by a huge amount. Batgirl, can I request a weekly discussion topic until the season starts? The baseball-related areas of my brain have been dangerously understimulated lately.

I have been to Yankee Stadium, The Vet, Shea, Citizen Bank Park (new Philly), Camden Yards, Wrigley, Dodger Stadium, and Anaheim. I am planning on going to Pittsburgh this year I hear the stadium is great, it's just the baseball that sucks :)

Without question Yankee Stadium is the best, and I am not just saying that because I am a Yankees fan. It's a very electric feel inside there, plus all of the history, plus moument park, plus Bob Sheppard.

There is nothing like seeing a game there. Baltimore and Wrigley are both great lazy afternoon ballparks. One of the perks of living on the East Coast is that it is easy to go to other stadiums. There are now 5 teams in 100-150 mile area, and i think 6 or 7 minor league teams as well.

Current Parks I Have Seen (in decreasing order of beauty): PNC Park (PIT), SBC Park (SF), Camden Yards, Wrigley, The Jake, Fenway, Turner Field, Angels Stadium, Miller Park, Oakland Coliseum, The Cell, Shea. Sorry, no Homerdome (the Hump?).

Current Parks I Have Seen From The Outside (in decreasing order of beauty): Kauffman Stadium (KC), Safeco Field (SEA), Yankee Stadium, Tropicana Field (TB).

IMO, even with the history, there is no way Yankee Stadium cracks my top 6.

I moved away from Minnesota in 1989 but I still follow the Twins as best I can via sattelite. Allow me to bring a little perspective to this discussion.

1) All this talk about how cheap Carl is makes me laugh. I was a Twins fan in the days of Calvin Griffith, who made Ebenezer Scrooge look like a philanthropist. We all celebrated when Pohlad bought the team from him. I certainly don't condone all the things he's done; contraction was a disgrace. But when it comes to putting a good product on the field, how many organizations can claim three straight division titles?

2) Nobody has mentioned the cable TV fiasco that ruined the first part of this season for most fans. I was able to watch the Twins from Arizona; most Minnesotans were blacked out. That's insane.

3) There's nothing wrong that a great pennant race wouldn't cure. Hopefully the ChiSox, or the Tribe, or even the Tigers, will improve enough to give the Twins a real run for their money this year (but still lose in the end, of course).

TribeScribe,

I agree. PNC is absolutely gorgeous, as well as SBC. It's too bad Barry Bonds ruins it.

Sincerely,
Meghan

Remember that the losses that the Twins report are due to debt service.

To the best of my knowledge, Pohlad borrowed the money to buy the team. From himself. So the interest is income in a different business. A billionaire should have the guts to buy with cash and let the profit/loss be transparent.

IMHO

And Sweet Zombie Jesus is a disgusting phrase and I call on the great Bat-Girl defender of common decency to ban it from the site.

Please.

At the risk of offending brooklynegg, zombies and, well, Jesus, I ask Batgirl to plumb not the murky depths of "common decency" and leave the censorship to Michael Powell and the PRC. Y'know ... free exchange of ideas, freedom of speech, that kind of thing?

>>maybe we could all sell those really valuable-looking 'stadium for minnesota' baseball cards we got at twinsfest

Hey, I didn't get no baseball card! Oh, it's on like a pot o' neckbones, now!

Parks I've been to? In no particular order, the Astrodome (much like the Metrodome), the old Texas Rangers stadium, whichever stadium was in KC in '92, Camden Yards, the BoB in Phoenix, Miller Park and the Metrodome. Of those, Camden Yards on a Spring afternoon was was the best. At the BoB, I got last minute tickets that made me feel like I had to duck when the roof opened and closed. However, I was amazed that I could still see the ball wherever it was on the field. Miller Park and the BoB struck me as being almost identical. At Miller Park, I liked the standing area out in right field, too. I like the Metrodome because in the time of great sucking, I could walk over after work and get great seats . I could even hear the conversations on the field, it seemed. Plus, it's the first time I've ever lived in a major league baseball city. I went to the park in KC as part of a road trip that included a 17 hour drive home right after the game. The other two were where my family went on vacations in the Summer. Baseball, Six Flags or Astroworld, fireworks or a concert, and usually a new cap or helmet right from the park.

Camden Yards was a hard park to go to for me. I used to live somewhat in the area, but it was built right after the strike. I was boycotting baseball for a few years after that. I actually didn't go there until after I'd moved here.

cxpat, ok, I see what you're saying. That $10m-$20m probably isn't as much to him as it is to us, but it's still a signficant chunk o'change. But I agree with you that having to spend to win is a debatable.

WOW, I first read this last night when 2 comments were posted..Came back on tonight and BOOM,,ALL of you make great points. Last year I mentioned in a post that batgirl had did a wonderful job with the site,,Twins etc during the year and maybe some effort be pointed towards a new stadium and didnt get ANY feedback,,,Hmmmm,,,Anyway,,, being a partial season ticket holder who was silly enough to get a batgirl Santana/Nathan poster on TV last year I do not need any apology from anyone. The Twins players have only been great to my kids,,us,,and all of you thoughout the years. They have been class acts. I chooooose to be a fan of baseball..It is a choice. I take management with stride. What needs to be done is BUILD A NEW STADIUM!!!!!! Be creative Mr.Gov./Legislature. Let all the idiots who want to chooose to gamble pay for it. Call your congressman and tell them this important to you if you want it. Everyone has to work together if it is to be done. Retractable roof is a must. Growing up in chicago I was spoiled going to Wrigley but having enjoyed the Twins for the past 20 years(yes,,,even at the DOME)the time has come for EVERYONE to watch a baseball game outside where the game was meant to play. "Forgive and Forget" the rewards will be multiplied many times over for you and your children........Iwazzabadboy

I only ready the papers and stuff of course, but from what I've read, the Twins are one of the more pro-active teams in their communities. I love that. Neither the Marlins or the Devils Rays are having a caravan. Neither are holding anything as nice as TwinsFest. (Yeah, select a seat day - lots of memorabilia for sale, no players in attendance.)

Me thinks the batkitties are starting to sound a lot like sour-pusses. Much like their mom.

why can't carl build a stadium? what a wonderful legacy and tribute to his wife, the big twins fan, the eloise pohlad memorial stadium would be. it's a no brainer. carl, you're no spring chicken and you can't take it with you......

being from out of town, i say a dome is required, retractable would be preferred of course. it sucks to travel only to be rained out. i'm going to the twins/sox games in july at fenway and i'm reeelly hoping that boston got all of it's moisture now and the weekend will be dry.

i agree with batgirl about loving our scrappy guys but it would be nice to keep them around a little longer. we do all the work of getting them up to the bigs only to sign them away. the screwing around with salaries of johan and the like are inexcusable. i would never want to see the twins sink to buying big names do draw the fans (i'm sorry, none of those yankees are worth that much money) and i'm proud of the accomplishments of our underdogs. the marketing people should run with that and i'll bet they win the hearts and entertainment dollars of a lot of minnesotans.

p.s. during a photo op with bert (a highlight of my twinsfest), i asked him to please please please talk to fox about letting him announce the post season instead of those other schmucks. he said he has no control. never hurts to ask tho.

I really don't understand why Minnesotans feel like they have been screwed by Carl Pohlad. Since he bought the team to keep the Calvin Griffin from moving it he has fielded a team that won 2 world championships and the last three ALC championships.

I can't think of any team that has done better than ours in the last 20 years except the Yankees. Certainly not the Bosox.

Carl Pohlad just might want to give the War Memorial Blood Center a few bucks instead of donating them to an unappreciative group of baseball fans.

If a ballpark has outlasted it's usefulness, the fans do'nt like it, the team does'nt like it-and if a new stadium broke ground tommorrow, the team would have spent close to 30 years playing by the Vikings rules, is it wrong to suggest that a new park is needed?

How it's paid for should be up for discusssion, but I don't think it's wrong for the Twins to suggest that it's time for a new park.

A new park would allow them to up the payroll, it would draw the more casual fans-at least while they're having success, and it would make it easier for the Pohlad's to sell the team.

Now Pohlad did lose me when he tried to contract the team. But out of the rubble, a silver lining if you will, came a smart, modest, hard working GM who could have fled for Toronto and taken several quality people with him. He stuck it out. And he set the tone for an entire organization. An organization I've grown to love.

I believe he will put another quality product on the field again this year. And Dome or not, it will be disapointng to me if this organization finishes in the very bottom of the league in attendance again this year.

John Hull - I beg to differ: Twins fans are the customers. Mr. Pohlad runs a business seeking them. Therefore, it's not incumbent upon the fans (aka customers) to show gratitude to the business. Their financial support of the team places an onus of gratitude on the owner. I don't owe Target any gratitude for my willingness to spend $53.67 in their store last night, do I?

Pohlad's "good deeds" occured over a decade ago. Since then, he's threatened to move the team repeatedly, offered it up for sacrifice to fatten his wallet and told fans it's their fault that he did so.

Any money he spends on the Twins is not a donation to the fans, it's an investment in a product that he hopes to sell.

No one is suggesting that he bankrupt himself - just don't treat the fans that support your business with contempt.

mike said,
"Now if you want to talk about Joe Buck and the most annoying man in the world Tim McCarver, and the terrible Chris Berman I will agree that a screaming 5 year old is better then these 3 clowns."

OMG, until now, I was operating under the assumption that all Yankee fans LOVED Joe Buck. Thank you for clearing up my misconception!

Interesting arguments on this thread so far. I have been blessed to have attended games at both the Metrodome, and its predecessor, Metropolitan Stadium. Met Stadium was a beautiful place to watch a ballgame, it sure did not hurt that we had greats such as Oliva, Killebrew and Carew around. I am, and always will be a Twins fan, and would attend if they played them in a parking lot. I dislike the dome for many reasons, but my love for the Twins is larger than my dislike of the dome. I do understand, however, that many people do not share my opinion.

To Ilk, perish the thought of sales tax on clothing, that is one of the few things that is not taxed to death here.

I have also visited Anaheim Stadium, Dodger Stadium and Wrigley Field. I have often wondered how the often hapless Cubs manage to sell out almost every game, even the weekday afternoon games. Is it marketing, or neighborhood pride?

Anyway, that is my $0.02 adjusted for inflation.

Win Twins!

BadAndy48 is right on: we don't owe Pohlad anything for selling us tickets for all these years. Besides, he screws the public over when it's good business. When he doesn't screw us over, it's not because he's our savior or friend, it's because screwing us over wouldn't have been good business right then. I'm sure we could have a worse owner in these days... actually, maybe not. It's close.

And Stiff touched on something I have thought a lot about: thank high heaven for GM Terry Ryan and his people. Not only did they show a great deal of loyalty during the contraction debacle, but they've done an amazing job with the resources they've had. I remember being worried when Andy McPhail left to lead the Cubs, and there was that whole great sucking period, but really I don't know where the Twins would be (perhaps literally) without Terry Ryan and his staff.

This discussion leaves me conflicted because I'm an all-out Twins fan, but I am still bitter about the way the fans and players have been treated in the past X number of years. I don't hate the Metrodome (how can I? It's practically all I've known. As a kid I was lucky enough to be there for Game 2 of the '87 Series and the legendary Game 6 of the '91 Series), but I recognize that it's not good for the Twins and baseball in general.

The thing that gets lost here is the distinction between ownership, management, and the players. The ownership makes my lip curl and my teeth clench. But I am thankful for management and I luuuuuurve the players. I've been away from MN for half a decade now, but it's given me the chance to see the Twins' outstanding AA team play from time to time (and to see the Twins play at Shea and Yankee Stadium, and to get circled by Bert at Fenway). Practically brings tears to my eyes to see guys like Ford and Morneau (and Mauer, although that was a sure deal) make it to the bigs after cheering for them in the great little stadium in New Britain, CT (they shouted "Lewwwwww" there, too). But I think that love for the Twins players only heightens my bitterness toward Pohlad. How could he have so much apparent contempt for such a great organization?

In the end, though, I have to lay my bitterness aside and follow my love for the Twins themselves. Even if it means letting Pohlad 'win' his nasty little games. Because if we play our cards right, the good ol' Twins will be around long after Mr. Pohlad is gone.

p.s. Camden Yards, Wrigley, Coors, Fenway, Yankee, Shea

>>Therefore, it's not incumbent upon the fans (aka customers) to show gratitude to the business.

Well, to an extent, sure. Just like any business, it's incumbent on the customers to patron that business or else it folds, or moves to a new location where they can draw more customers. I would say it's a symbiotic relationship. We need a team to support and they need our supports. They've provided us with a team, a good team that wins more than they lose, that supports the community through the Twins Community Fund, that fosters a team culture that promotes players that are responsible and exemplary members of the community (Randy Moss anyone?) and, for the most part, is a joy to have around. All this while keeping the price of enjoying their "product" at a modest level.

Using the Target analogy, in a sense you DO sort of owe Target a little gratitude. Thankfully, they carry what you need at a price that's reasonable, in an atmosphere that's clean, and with a mostly pleasant staff. Now, let's say they did all that, but you didn't like Target Corp because they didn't let the Salvation Army bell ringers at their store. So, you stop going to Target. Now, Target, at this point, has several options. Like we've discussed here, they can market, they can change, or they can move. If they've tried the first, are resistant to the second because they want to make a profit (those bastards) and the third comes with tax breaks, financial incentives and a customer base that can't wait for them to come to town so they can go to Target ... well, that 3rd option starts to look mighty attractive. That's all I'm saying.

It's human nature. You don't stay where you aren't wanted if there's plenty of other places that are glad to have you. It's like when Aunt Sally kicked Uncle Henry in the nads. Now, Uncle Henry might not have deserved the kick in the nads, but, for whatever reason, it happened. But Aunt Sally is a hottie, and she's generally fun to be around. If Uncle Henry won't come around, there's more than a few men who would be willing to take his place. It's only a matter of time until they either make up, or she finds someone else.

Way to go, mmmarkiep! Taking the Aunt Sally and Uncle Henry metaphor to a whole new level!

Word Smith - "We now interrupt your regularly scheduled pennant race to bring you a meaningless series with the San Diego Padres."

Ouch. I have to say I've adopted the 'Dres as my NL team after meeting my SD-lovin' boyfriend. We loooooooove Twins/Padres series when we can get 'em.

But yeah, you just made an unfortunate choice of NL teams to pick; Interleague does suck as a whole. The only upside is planning vacations around series in "exotic" locales in the name of Twins baseball.

So, I've been to (only) Kauffman, SD's Qualcomm (want soooooo badly to check out Petco) and BankOne Ballpark in Phoenix (I was bummed that I couldn't see an el Presidente/Big Unit match-up last year, but I'm sure it'll happen now that he's joined the Yankees...).

You know, the Dome does suck and there are a multitude of issues that go along with that - many of them already discussed at length. The only thing is that it's OURS. I'll gladly sit in a crappy football-centric bubble if I can watch the boys.

Thanks, Goober.

Say Rah, I went to The BOB in Phoenix when I was there on business. I had a night to myself, found out the D'Backs were in town and went down and got a ticket. I lucked out. The matchup was Randy Johnson pitching against Greg Maddux. Johnson wound up with 13 strikeouts and they still lost, but what a great game to luck into.

And, to be clear, I'm not sure how I became the defense for Pohlad. That whole contraction thing is something to be mad about for sure. I'm just saying that if we're going to hold a grudge about it, then we can't turn around and wonder why he might be holding a grudge against some of the fans. For the way the Dome deal favors the Vikes. For the low attendance. For the repeated rejection of the franchise, essentially, by rejecting a new ball park to replace the one that everyone admittedly hates.

Let peace begin with me. Or something.

mmmarkiep - the BOB is pretty awesome, huh? I am still scratching my head trying to figure out how they kept it comfortably cool in there - over the 4th of July weekend - in PHOENIX - with the roof open. It was like 107! By some stroke of scheduling genius, the D'Backs happened to have the Padres in town immediately followed by our Twins, so the boyfriend & I were both thrilled. I still got to see Johnson pitch (and beat us), I was just hoping Johan could give him a run for his money - sadly, he did not make an appearance that series.

OK, back to the issue at hand. Carl, the Dome, funding, etc. I think I just made up my mind to hate Carl and move on. I highly doubt that all of our issues are 100% his fault, but it's just easier to believe that.

Contraction was a VERY scary time, very. I live 4 hours away in Sunny South Dakota & took a weekday off work to catch the last (home?) game before the deadline. It was a crappy game & really rather somber, but we survived it.

The ironic thing is that I'm not normally a positive, "glass-is half-full" kind of girl, but I figure we escaped a fate worse then death. I decided to be happy taking what I can get; even if it is a cheapskate owner, a crappy dome and providing the rest of the majors with some of the best home-grown talent around.

Very little to add to the dome/marketing discussion, but wanted to come out of hibernation on two points:

1) Nobody loves Joe Buck (or McCarver for that matter); and

2) Emotionwise, Yankee Stadium is #1 for me (from memories as a little kid, bat-day every year on my birthday, and countless games during and after our own little Sucking Time, it is understandable). From an objective perspective, Camden Yards is by far the #1 greatest place to watch a ballgame, then Citizen's Bank Park in Philly. A day game at Wrigley is an experience in and of itself, and an evening of baseball at Fenway followed by drunken singing at Jake Ivory's is perhaps unequaled anywhere else (uhhh, so I hear). Have yet to make it to the Metrodome, but hope that I get the chance before it goes. The only park I would never return to is Riverfront Stadium in Cincinatti. Saw nothing redeemable about it, and experienced the worst game in baseball history there -- single run scored in top 1st, followed by literally nothing the rest of the way, which turned out to be like 6 hours with the rain delays...

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thoughtful discussion without (thankfully) my input :)

YankeeFan

Sorry, Say Rah!, you're right, absolutely no disrespect meant to the San Diego Padres. I could just as easily have said Philadelphia Phillies, which is a franchise I happen to have affection for, for personal reasons, but I imagine that many folks around here would be hard pressed to name more than a couple of players currently on the team.

The Twins have great players, great coaching, great management, but sub-par ownership and, lets face it, one of the worst 3 parks in baseball. really, is there an owner of a pro sports team with more money than Pohlad? probably only a handful. i agree with everybody else that says the commitment shown by ownership is the weak link in the chain. this hasn't been touched on yet, but is Carl maybe old enough that he may not know up from down these days, and since his son(s) have started to take over, maybe Carl's just a puppet and the kids are pulling on the strings? i dont have any info on it, but the timeline seems about right (sons get involved, skies begin to darken, whispers of contraction are heard, etc). maybe the boys just want to see how it feels to have $$ in their eyes when they make big decisions like daddy always has.
as for the ballpark, it's the easiest to complain about because it's there for every game. the comments have either been a)it sucks or b) i can deal with it because i like the Twins. i can deal with it, too, but then i go to Milwaukee and catch a game with friends i look down at their crappy team and think, 'what did the Brewers do to deserve this?' then i look up at the rusty, leaky roof and chortle. Minnesota taxes EVERYTHING (sans clothing), so if there are a few more pennies on my bill next time i order my waffle fries at Sensor's, so be it. im not going to notice. i want to watch the Twins play on grass. and as for the Vikes, they've had it too easy for too long. they can share a football field with the Gophers. why build 2 separate stadiums that will each only host 5-10 games each? absurd. the Twins can justify it more because they play 10x the games.
i will say this. i live 75 miles from the HHHDome, but if we had a new park, i would come to 12-15 games instead of 6 or so i make it to now. if lots of people from 50-100 miles away from the Cities said the same thing.....

another note: i went to see the Winter Caravan when they came down to Rochester last year with Victory Sports under one arm and ballpark dreams under the other. Corey Koskie (R.I.P. Cordell), got up and spoke to us (he said 'aboot' and 'ya knooow' and 'Minnesoooota' a lot), and i think he said it best. he said that one day he would be gone (oh how cruel), that one day Torii would be done playing, even the baby M&Ms would be only memories, but if a new ballpark was built, it would be here for the fans, and it would be here for generations. he told about how he just built a new home in the metro and, when his kids get old enough, he wanted to be able to take them to a game outdoors and enjoy games in the sunshine, and he wanted to be able to do the same with his grandkids.
i got a little verklempt (sp) that day, if only because i found those statements very true. i can't imagine that those were the thoughts dancing in the heads of Minnesotans when the HHHDome was built.

PS - Fenway, Wrigley, Comerica, Miller Park, New Comisky, SkyDome, Milw. County Stadium, HHHDome.

PSS - i'm only 2 years older than the HHHDome. can someone explain to me why the Met was torn down? my dad has only good things to say about it.

Payroll isn't the problem. I'd love to say that an 80 million dollar payroll would put 2.5 million fans in the dome, but it simply isn't true. I don't buy in to the contraction thing keeping fans away either. Claiming that trying to take the Twins away caused people to not want to see the Twins seems like backwards logic (if people are willing to stop watching the team they shouldn't have minded if the team was eliminated anyway). There is only one thing keeping people out of those seats: the stadium. My mom always told me that baseball is not an inside game. Build a stadium and attendance will go up by 50%.

And don't blame your govenor. Anyone who lives in Minnesota knows what your state income tax is. Your government has plenty of money. They just want to spend it on other things (signs that indicate where every "right turn lane" and "left turn lane" is in the entire state). The question is simple: How important is Twins baseball to you? Is it important enough to make cuts in other places? Is it important enough to get out there and tell your legislature what you think? Is it important enough to get off your tails and do something to keep it?

Pohlad blows, but he isn't the problem. If he sells the team without a stadium, they will leave the Cities. You, the Minnesotan, the voter, you are the problem. You have to make your government do something. If you don't get a stadium, and thus lose the team, you have noone to blame but yourselves. As a South Dakotan, and loyal Twins fan since birth, I will be very disappointed in you if that happens. Sorry for my bluntness, but it's the truth.

I also don't mind paying extra pennies. Actually if they were just taxing the waffle fries at Senser's I'd be happy to pay whole extra dollars, YUM!

I just wish there was something we could DO to advance the stadium issue. Besides keep going to games, buying merchandise, oinking dome dogs, etc. Really, even if you write your reps, you're still just one constituent. Anybody have any other proactive ideas?

FJM, I couldn't agree with you more about the Cable TV issue. I seriously thought the Twins would have hit 2 mil had it not been for the "Victory Sports"

Between that and my cable company removing WGN last year - I had almost no baseball for the first month of the season. Shouldn't that considered torture?

Being from North Dakota, I like the fact that my 4 hour drive isn't going to be a waste because of rain - That said: SafeCo is an absolutley perfect stadium to see a game.

BTW...I wish my dad did play-by-play so I could get a job that I wasn't qualified for too.

Wow. Thank goodness for Batgirl and the Batlings in baseball's dry season.

Babushka: "I thought that the Twins should have ripped-of the Royals' tag line after their 2001 season: 'You Gotta Love These Guys.' Add a Minnesota accent to that and it's down-right goofy."

Help me out, old-timers (you know who you are). Am I wrong in remembering Cal standing beside a young Butch Wynager saying exactly that? I don't suppose thirty-year-old add campaigns can't be recycled, however. It was just a weird flashback.

Sorry. Me again.

You are never just one constituent. Politicians are savvy enough to know that because some people are proactive about certain issues, there are other (albeit lazier) voters that care about the same issues.

Write or call your Congressman about every issue that you feel strongly about, including this one. One should never feel as though he or she is powerless. He or she would be wrong :)

YankeeFan

>really, is there an owner of a pro sports team with more money than Pohlad?

I'd like to see the stats. Red McCombs might be pretty close to name just one. I wonder how much of all this money he has in liquid assets or if it's the (theoretical) worth of his business holdings. I'm guessing he doesn't have a billion in the bank.

>My mom always told me that baseball is not an inside game.

Hey, mine, too! But we took a rolled up sock ball and a spatula and played in the kitchen/living room. The stove was home, one edge of sofa was first, the other second, the stereo third. Anything off the wall above the sofa was a home run. Ground rule double if you hit it down the hall way and all the way into the bathroom. Which, looking back, doesn't seem fair. Ahhh, memories. And, looking back, didn't make much sense when we went to the Astrodome most summers (shorter drive from San Antonio than Dallas-Fort Worth) for vacation.

I believe that Pohlad is the 4th richest owner in Baseball. As far as the rest of sport not sure, but there are some real rich guys with teams. The Sonics I believe are owned by one of the Microsoft guys. The home depot guy owns the falcons. Ted Turner is the richest in baseball, I believe.

Polhad is in the top 100 richest people in this country though. If I remeber correctly from a post i did here before, his persoanl wealth is around 2.8 billion and he is 87. So he could build a $500 mil stadium and still have 2.3 billion left and even if he lives to 100 he would only have 13 years in which to spend 2.3 billion. Oh and they think Johan is only worth 5 million and all he wants is 6.5 .... Cheap b**t**d !

hrhunting, you're right. The Twins marketing campaign when Wynegar was a rookie had him saying "I love this kid!" or something like that. Wynegar was brough north with the club in his first spring training, if I remember correctly. I also think he hit a home run in his first at-bat, though my memory might be failing me.

Oh, and mmmarkiep, I hear you on the indoor baseball. My brother and I loved that game, but it's time in our house came to an abrupt end when he dove into first base head first. Which was a dehumidifier. A metal dehumidifier with very sharp corners.

I present the resulting frantic drive to Fairview and dozen stitches above his eye as evidence that the old baseball adage is true: Don't dive into first base.

Sorry, Florida, I gotta differ with you. We are not the problem, nor is it our problem to solve. Just because it has become the expected norm for a metropolitan area to provide its sports team with the gift of a stadium, does not make it right. With the billions of dollars floating around in the business of baseball, how, when, and why did it become the responsibility of the customers to figure out how to make their franchise a going concern? Shouldn't that be what the owners are doing?

I'm actually all in favor of some public funding for a stadium, just as I believe the state should support the arts and other valuable assets. But I just have this little problem with lies and extortion.

I place the blame for the general hostility towards the stadium issue in Minnesota squarely on the shoulders of Carl Pohlad, who mishandled this thing from the get-go. When the Guthrie Theater needed a new facility, did they come to the legislature and whine that they were losing money and say that unless they got a handout, they would pack up their world class theater and go somewhere else? No, they developed a comprehensive funding plan which included some money from the state, and came to the legislature with a proposal and a case for why this was good for the citizens and why public money should be part of the package. If the Twins had put together some kind of reasonable proposal and brought it to the people and said, hey, here's how we can all work together and make this work, well, I just think things could have gone a little differently. Instead he succeeded in pissing everyone off so badly that even the most reasonable stadium proposal will be hard pressed to ever make it past a legislature full of representatives who feel it could be political suicide to be seen in support of any public funding whatsoever. What a shame.

Smitty

Great story, TwinsGeek!

Ok, I've done some checking using Forbes.com. If you don't count Disney and Time Warner (who own the Braves now according to the list I'm looking at) then, yeah, in baseball, Pohlad's the richest. Paul Allen, who used to own the Mariners, was at the top. Their new owner, is within spitting distance at $1.4 billion. There are two others at $1.3 and $1.8 billion and one other (on the Forbes 400 richest Americans list) at $750 million. So, yeah, in baseball, he's the richest individual owner.

Now, let's pretend. Let's pretend you have some money. And someone says you should buy dinner since you have so much money. But then, someone else says, hey, we'll buy you dinner and give you little something more if you move to our table. So ... money out of your pocket (oh and those first people don't like you very much, either) or dinner on someone else's dime?

Dearest Hrunting -

I remember that commercial with Calvin and Butch Wynegar - he said something like "I love this kid"
Butch was my favourite Twin back in the day!

BTW:
Camden Yards is a beautiful park - my favourite so far
Fenway and Wrigley have lots of ambiance - I liked Fenway better
PacBell (when I went it was still PacBell) I enjoyed too
Shea - well the people I was sitting next to were fun - the Stadium eh not so much
The SkyDome - was interesting - I thought it was huge and for some reason the grass looked painted on
Comisky was fun - when I went the Twins won ;-)
And I kind of liked the Brewers old Stadium - haven't been to the new park yet

Much love
Wonder Woman

Then, we have no one to blame but ourselves if they leave. That's what the market will bear. That's the precedent set by cities that want a team. It's not a gift, either. I mean, they pay for some of it with leases. Yeah, they get revenue from it, but then, what about the lost revenue when a team leaves? How many businesses in St. Paul are being hit because there's no hockey?

Is it right? Probably not. Is letting the Twins move to another city going to make a point? Maybe. Will it stop other cities from building a stadium to get someone else's team? Nope. Will we ever get another baseball team if we lose this one? Not likely. Will anyone care that we made a point when, in the middle of Summer, listening to the radio as Joe Mauer, future hall of famer, hits a walk off homer the Nashville Twins? Not likely.

Like usual, I'm late to the party but want to toss in my 2 cents. i think BG really nailed it. After all the shenanigans any remaining sense of goodwill in the community has evaporated. And I would say that the current run of 3 division titles with no real attempt being made to push the team over the hump to World Series ready is actually going to further erode it. For better or worse Carl Pohlad's name is now mud. He was once the savior of the Twins but is now their worst enemy. I'm sure some are even wistful about calvin Griffith these days. I thin Carl had a chance a couple of years ago to undo all the damage to his rep and the team by seriously committing to build a stadium and he blew it. I'm not even saying that he ahd to pay for the whole thing himself. If had ponied up $200 million or so that would show the legislature (and voters) that he was willing to work with them to build a stadium for the team. But it's a pretty bitter pill for the state to swallow that one of the richest men in the world needs to get a brand new stadium fully funded by the taxpayers. Where's the political upside in that? Now part of the problem extends deeper than Carl (that would be the possibly even worse Bud Selig and his scheme of fleecing every possible city for all he can) but has anyone told him that he can't take all that luchre with him? Why not spend a small chunk on a memorial to your wife and become a beloved local hero once again? But the upshot is that no new marketing campaign is going to radically increase attendance. Short of a new stadium/owner, the team's only hope is to win the Series.

Thanks, Twinsgeek and Wonder Woman. I didn't have it entirely right, but I appreciate your confirmation of the memory.

Now, re: stadiums.

Safeco. Absolutely lovely. The view is fantastic, the park is beautiful, and even with the roof closed, you're still outdoors. Bring a blankie to night games, even in the summer. Seattle evenings get chilly. Also, terrific food: Ivar's clam chowder, sushi (if you're into that), pulled pork sandwiches. Incidentally, I was present for the only home rain delay in Mariner's history a couple of years back. Roof malfunction. Took about 45 minutes, but then the game went on.

the Bob: Nice, for being in the desert. I did sort of have the feeling I was in a big tupperware with the lid snapped on, though. Very steep. Also, I found the "brew pub" next door really amusing. I grew up in MN, then went to the Pacific Northwest (possibly the nation's richest region for brew pubs). The big purpose-built "brew pub" next to the Bob is a Leinenkugels. I know our neighboring state's beloved brew has been getting a little crafty lately, but really. Pffft.

Miller Park: Eh. It's nice, I guess. The roof seemed kind of creaky. On the whole, though, I think the place is probably pretty good. It was hard for me to muster up much enthusiasm for the Selig site when he'd just tried to contract my team and was telling everyone in the world that the only way to save baseball is to hand over spanky new stadiums.

Wrigley: Beautiful. From my seats we had a great view of the lakeshore and a nice cool breeze on a warm day. One sad thing about great old parks: you all have to go to one place to buy snacks. Therefore, very crowded concessions area. (Also bathrooms that were only barely adequate.) Definitely worth the visit, though. I'm glad I've been there and seen the Ivy and all. But now I go to see the Sox, who play the Twins, and for whose games one can actually get tickets at face value (or half-price on Mondays and Tuesdays). Which brings me to . . .

Comisky (or the Joan -- not that other name): Not so bad as you might think. I've never sat in the second deck, which looks like it reaches right up to heaven, but the baselines and outfield seats aren't bad. That said, it's the only park I've been to where drunk strangers heckled me all night for wearing a Twins jersey to the game. (I swear I wasn't being obnoxious.) Given some of the history in that stadium, I don't like to get on the wrong side of the drunk fans there.

HHH Metrodome: I'm not going to lie. I'd rather watch a game elsewhere. BUT if I were still in the Cities, I'd get to the dome as often as I could. I used to like the seats out behind left field. And whatever anyone says, the cement-topped domes were worse. (Kingdome -- blech. Also Kingdog and Kingbeer. Double blech.)

I have a whole list of stadiums I want to get to. Thanks for the insights, all, especially on the newer parks.

I found Met Staduim to be rather charming. I was a little boy, of course, so I didn't notice the safety problems everyone talks about. The best part was the grassy area down the third base line where you could sit on a picnic blanket and watch the games. Nice.

Word Smith - no offense taken. :) San Diego is the perfect team to illustrate your point.

It's ironic that I get all giddy to see the Padres on the schedule because yes, a few years back, I wouldn't have been able to name a single player either, save for Gywnn.

And I will admit that the Padres probably won't bring too many fans to the Dome this summer, but I will have the boyfriend in tow. I am proud to say the Twins drew a heck of a crowd in San Diego two years ago. Magic Number Guy was there... What ever happened to him?

Dearest Goober -

There were safety problems at the Met?? Hmm I guess you don't notice that stuff when you're in sitting in the sun with your kid sister eating hot dog after hot dog. I loved that place! I remember my mom yelling at us to stop running down the steps ;-)

Much Love
Wonder Woman -

"Shea - well the people I was sitting next to were fun - the Stadium eh not so much"

I always found that Shea smelled like armpits. I actually have tickets to a game there this year. Mets-Giants in early June. I want to make a huge sign with a great big * on it for Barry.

"Being from North Dakota, I like the fact that my 4 hour drive isn't going to be a waste because of rain." - Dewey

Ditto for this South Dakotan. Now that I really consider it, this might be the main reason I can't actually bring myself to HATE the Metrodome.

Just a quick aside to say that I hope I'm not coming across as hostile. I'm both really glad and really impressed at the civil tone of this discussion. It's an emotionally charged topic and polite debate isn't always easy. We should be proud of ourselves. Oh, and thanks Batgirl for opening the discussion. You're the best.

I've just read through all 103 comments here thus far, and haven't heard any mention of the concept of community ownership. The Pohlad family ownership is the #1 obstacle to advancing the cause of a new ballpark, thanks to the nefarious deeds BatGirl outlined at the top. Give the community an honest-to-goodness investment in the team and it would be so much easier to continue that investment into necessary infrastructure.

On an unrelated ballpark note, it fries me that the U of M is so frazzled about their football stadium not being on campus at the same time that poor Siebert Field is in shambles, leading them to play a large majority of their home schedule this year in the dome. Crowds of 200 people look great in Siebert, but are dwarfed among the blue seats and Teflon Sky of HHH.

My ballpark experiences begin at the old Cleveland Stadium, through the Jake & Riverfront, to Milwaukee, Montreal, and the minor league fields of Iowa. If you've never been to Sec Taylor in Des Moines or Quad Cities, get there. A fine baseball adventure!

Long-time reader, first-time writer. Thanks for filling winter with Baseball, Batgirl!

Dearest Say-Rah -

I am exicted to see the Padres I have tickets to the entire series- I would have liked to seen the Trevor Hoffman spectacle the lights the music- but it's not the right ballpark.

And Mike -
I don't recall Shea smelling like an armpit - I just was not impressed - it needs a make over or something. It looks bigger on tv

Sorry batgirl - didn't mean to break up this fine discussion ;-)

Fiesta

While I to would agree that a community owned stadium would begreat for fans, MLB and team owners would never accept this. A team's value increases with a stadium and since investment value is all that most owners are really interested in you would never get one to agree to a new community owed stadium, especially if another city would not require it.

This is the part of sports that really sucks

Come, on guys. Enough of this jeremiad. Frankly, I believe that all of the hand-wringing, arm-flailing, and teeth-gnashing is much of the reason the Dome is empty. If fans complain long enough and loud enough, no one will want to come. Sure - Carl is a tightwad, the contraction threat was punitive, the Triad move was extortion, the Dome is a toilet bowl, etc. But if we continue to dwell on all of that, who could blame the Sunday fans for staying home? How about some positive ideas for rectifying the situation? Maybe some one will listen to them. They sure won't listen to bitching.

I fall directly in the "Dome is bad" category. We live less than 15 minutes from dome and there is many an early evening when the family is looking for something to do on a gorgeous summer night. Unfortunately there are too few of those to waste inside at a sterile dome. I'd be willing to offer up some of my tax dollars for a new stadium if Carl matched me.

Ballparks:

Metrodome, Old Metropolitan
Old Milwaukee County and Miller Field
Wrigley, Old Chomisky, New Chomisky
Fenway
Yankee
Baltimore Memorial, Camden
Candlestick
SkyDome
Busch

Going to Coors this summer.

Of course the classics are the best, Wrigley, Fenway, Yankee. Camden is wonderful, Skydome is huge. Old Chomisky was old and cranky but had character. Plus Carlton Fisk hit a 450 hr over my head! Old Met, Milwaukee County, Candlestick and Baltimore Memorial Stadium all built from the same erector set. Busch surprises you in how nice it is.

Mike--Actually, I wasn't referring to a community owned stadium, but community owned BASEBALL TEAM. That would be local ownership to the nth degree.

Pro Player Stadium is also very nice, considering it looks like a dump on tv.

Though, Tropicana Field does looks like a dump on tv and in person. Atleast the MetroDome isn't that bad.

I have ALWAYS loved the Come not for what it looks like, but the memories it contains.

I could care less to have a state-of-the-art field like the Brewers, and have no reason to be attached to it.

And obviously, I meant Dome.

Wonder Woman,

I'm glad someone else will be there welcoming the Padres into town! I hope they are good this year - they made such strides last season just to run into the Dodgers and the 100% all-natural Barry Bonds (he IS the only player in San Fran isn't he?)

Fiesta

I was also referring to a stadium. The teams owners want the rights of the stadium, it adds value to the team. If the community owned the stadium it would not add value to the team and thus no owner would agree to such a stadium.

Opps disregard my comment above....

However there is only one team in sport owned by the public, the Green Bay Packers. I believe that MLB would not allow the sale of the Twins to the Twin's fans. I mean what kind of money would the fans give to the league for the right to own the team ? Some people seem to have a problem with approving 200 million-ish for a stadium what about 500 - 600 million for the team ?

Maybe if we took up a collection? Or .. oooh! I know! We can put on a show! We'll use ol' man Cooper's barn and ... and ...

Heheh. I can see it know. You get a letter in the mail asking for another $40 each so we can go after a "quality free agent." Or, for a year the gas tax goes up so we can sign everyone back.

Word Smith,

I understand why you don't think it's the customer's responsibility to pay for a building to house a company. Here's why I disagree with you: Customers ALWAYS pay for the buildings that house companies. Why should a Pohlad donate his money so that we can have a team? Shouldn't the customers pay for the product?

FL.

P.S.
Of course, that's easy for me to say since you [Minnesotans] would be paying for it while us South Dakotans get off scott-free.

Fatt:
Pro Player: It'll always be Joe Robbie to me.
Tropicana: What were they thinking?

FL

Whew! I made it through all the comments in one sitting!

I don't like the Dome, but hey, it's where I can see MLB games, so I go. Plenty of good baseball is played within the confines of bad architecture. My brother is a proud KC fan so we get into arguments about how sucky the Dome is - last summer was the first time he'd been in the Dome for, oh, 10 years and he came away from that experience saying that it wasn't as bad as he remembered. And we were in the cheap seats and everything - well, some of the best cheap seats:Sec. 216 which is now the new family section for '05. Durrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Would I welcome a new stadium? Sure! But I wouldn't be able to go to as many games because I wouldn'