Blyleven's exclusion from the HOF is inexusable. Here's hoping that he and my main man Ryno are going in together this year. And if there's any justice, Sutter and Santo too.

Bert is also the best Dutch player who's not in the Hall of Fame, which ought to count for something. Coincidentally, I ran into a member of the Dutch national baseball team from Athens at the Mac store in Amsterdam today and he asked my Twins-cap-wearing self about Bert and why he wasn't in the Hall of Fame.

"He didn't earn enough wins," says I.

"That's sh-t," says he. Dutch people love English swear words. "That's not the pitcher's job. Keeping batters off the bases is the pitcher's job. Stopping runners from scoring, too. Winning and losing? That is because of the whole team, not only the pitcher. Blyleven did the pitcher's job very well."

Amazing, isn't it, that an amateur player from Holland knows more about the game of baseball than the American professionals who decide which players make the Hall of Fame.

I think the reasons Burt is not in the hall are clear. The fact that he has only 287 wins isn't the reason I think the 287-250 record is. He pitched for over 20 years and never won a Cy Young and was an all-star only twice.And he was never truely dominate any one season, like Santana this year.

Blyleven was a good pitcher, but not great and the HOF is for the great players. I know Twins fans have more respect for what he did, but he really didn't do anything special. He hung around for a long time to earn some stats, and didn't win enough games and more so lost too many. And I am not trying to offend, just offering an opinion of baseball fan outside of Minn.

The Twins pitcher that I think should be in is Morris. That game 7 in 91 was truely amazing and worthy.

Not a GREAT pitcher? Did you READ the post? Good pitchers do not get 60 shutouts. Good pitchers do not get 3701 strikeouts.

People are not pissed about Bert's HOF slight because we're Twins fans and we're biased. Unless you think stats are biased.

There are PLENTY of people in the HOF who deserve to be there less than Bert. Not that they're bad or anything, but Bert is better. You know, like Dennis Eckersley or someone.

20 no decisions??? WTF. That's just weird.

ArrScott are you catching any footie in Amsterdam (as opposed to other parts of the body Amsterdam is know for)? If so give some love to my boy Beasley at PSV!

"The Twins pitcher that I think should be in is Morris. That game 7 in 91 was truely amazing and worthy."

So now one single game is more Hall of Fame worthy than an entire career? I love Jackie Morrison (as my confused grandpa calls him), and watching video of Game 7 in 1991 still gives me chills to this day. But to say that Jack Morris is more deserving to be in the Hall of Fame than Bert Blyleven is insane. Jack Morris was a "good" player. Bert Blyleven is not the greatest of players, and I can think of many pitchers greater than him. But Blyleven is certainly a great player. Just get a hitter that faced him to talk about his curveball, and you see why he should be in the Hall of Fame. Yeah, Blyleven's amazing stats are aided by the fact that he played for 20 seasons, but the same could be said for Roger Clemens or Greg Maddux. Yet is there any doubt that those two will be in the Hall of Fame, let alone first ballot inductees?

If Blyleven does get the Hall of Fame nod tomorrow, may I be the first to suggest a Batling road trip to Cooperstown for Induction Weekend?

Burt deserves it. The thing that impresses me most are the Ks. This was an era when striking out was almost seen as an insult. Obviously before the Dunn philosophy of hit it far or not at all.

Morris deserves it too for one reason. He was the ace pitcher (and arguably the missing piece) on three different World Series teams. If Jeter deserves the Hall, so does Morris. I think Morris is also helped greatly by Game 7. It is like the Heisman Throphy. You need that one signature highlight.

That being said, neither will see the hall without the Vet. Com. How many papers would it sell?

I like FPM2K's idea...if he doesn't, the Batlings could have some fun in Cooperstown!

What the heck? We should all go even if he does...which HE BETTER!

Soccerfan - Haven't caught any Dutch-league games, but I was in Prague and southern Bohemia during the last half of Euro 2004, so I saw the Czech Republic games on giant-screen projection in various town squares. With tens of thousands of Czech revellers. What a blast! Before that I watched Holland games with friends here in Amsterdam. It was really like if the Superbowl lasted for a month.

From ESPN2 Sports Guy's column today ....

BERT BLYLEVEN: NO
Here's my biggest problem with the Hall of Fame: Someone like Blyleven can sit on the ballot for enough years and voters can start talking themselves into him -- it's like browsing in a video store, not finding anything and eventually letting your girlfriend talk you into renting "Wimbledon." Blyleven was an above-average pitcher for a very long time -- 287-250 lifetime record, 3701 strikeouts, a 3.31 ERA, a killer Uncle Charlie and one of the best beards of that era. But he only made two All-Star teams in 22 seasons, and he only finished in the top-ten voting for the Cy Young Award four times (never placing higher than 3rd). As I wrote three years ago, I can't remember coming home from school and having my father say to me, "Let's go to Fenway and scalp tickets -- Bert Blyleven's in town!" He's out.

Also from Sports Guy

JACK MORRIS: YES
I'd even vote Morris in as a Level Two Hall of Famer -- see my Hall of Fame Pyramid for details -- because his 10-inning, complete-game shutout in Game 7 of the '91 Series remains the most memorable big-game pitching performance of the pre-Schilling's Bloody Sock Era. He also won 162 games in the '80s, which speaks for itself. And remember, Morris once dismissed female sportswriters by saying, 'The only time I want to talk to a woman when I'm naked is if I'm on top of them or they're on top of me,' which might be one of the five or six funniest high-school yearbook quotes ever. Throw in that cool handlebar 'stache and he's in. Discussing this one for more than 30 seconds actually makes me angry.

Every post provides further evidence of Bert's stature... while Morris is hailed for a game, a quote, and winning 162 in one decade (what is this fascination with arbitrary years ending in zero?), Bert is dismissed because, year in and year out, for practically forever, he proved himself a winner. The HOF is about career achievement, not individual feats and individual great years. Bert, I'm with you. (The 20 no-decisions for a WS team is a great undiscovered statistic!!)

Sorry but Burt's win loss record is 287-250 37 games over .500 and a .535 winning %. That is not a proven winner. It's barely .500. He pitched for 22 years and made 2 all star games and never won a Cy Young

If you were a manager and had a must win game and had to pick a starting pitcher between Morris or Burt who would you pick ?

I think it would be Morris without blinking an eye.

Some random thoughts:

I see Bert and Jack with roughly the same "credentials" to make the Hall. Bert was good for a longer period of time. Jack was better over a smaller period of time. Neither have the dazzling statistics. And in an era when "moneyball" is redefining stats, Hall voters should look beyond wins and ERA and K.

Bert could one day win the consolation prize of being inducted into the broadcaster's wing.

Bert had the best beard. But Jack's crumb-catcher was probably harder to maintain. Keeping those things evenly trimmed can be a real bugger.

Here are the arguments agains Bert's election to the HOF:
1) Not enough wins. That's bogus. 287 wins is incredibly close to the automatic ticket puncher of 300. One less no decision from a pitcher who spent most of his entire career with bad teams and he's already in. You can't punish him for the teams to which he was traded.
2) Not dominant enough. That's bogus. 5th all time on the strike-out list and - especially - a career 3.31 ERA do not lie. A pitcher's ERA is a very leakproof indication of his performance and to retire with one as low as Bert's after 20 plus years in the bigs is amazing. Only a handful of other pitchers have managed to produce similar results.
3) Not much hardware - no Cy Youngs or All Star games or such. That's bogus. Is anyone out there honestly claiming that the selection for these awards is a universally fair indication of a player's performance? Please.

End this stupidity and vote Blyleven in already. If he'd played for the Yankees for even most of his career and had the same numbers he would have gone in a decade ago.

Mike - Regarding winning percentage: a pitcher is not like a quarterback. He does not have as much direct influence over whether or not his team wins. He cannot produce runs. There are three letters that above all else tell you about the quality of a pitcher: E R A

Earned run average is a very clear measurement of how well a starting pitcher keeps his team in the game. Any other statistic about a starting pitcher is an afterthought.

I love SportsGuy -- even more so for the emphatic NO to Don Mattingly -- but Tommy John YES and Bert NO? What's up with that?

How can you be in the top five in strikeouts and not be in the Hall of Fame? Just answer me that.

Here's what we're saying, mike: Whether your team wins or loses is not entirely in your hands (especially if your team happens to suck). Whether you get voted onto an All-Star team or get any Cy Young nods is also out of your control. Whether or not you make the bitches sit down, now that is completely within your control.

Smitty

again its not that he didn't win 300 its that he didn't win 300 and lost 250. He didn't win enough and never dominated.

Ron Guidry and Tommy John are yankees that aren't in that would both match up to Burt, so its not a Yankee thing.

Face it He was real good, but not great. I mean he pitched for 22 years and only made 2 all star games ? Steve Carlton pitched for one of the worst teams in baseball the '72 Phillies and he won the Cy Young. That team won 59 games, Lefty won 27 of them so don't say because he played for bad teams. Bottom Line he didn't win enough and by that I don't mean 300 games I mean 287-250 is not a great win/loss record. If his record would have been 287-190 then maybe but 287-250 that's not good.

If you had to win one game would Burt be a guy you could depend on to win it ? I say no. No Cy Youngs, only 2 all star games and only 37 games over .500. 5th all time in strike outs is impressive, but when you are not a clear cut HOF hardware matters.

Clemens has 7 Cy Youngs and .667 winning% almost 200 more wins then losses 2nd all time in strike outs that's a HOFer

Burt just doesn't match up. Would you take Him over Clemens, Carlton, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddox, Seaver, Ryan or any of the other great pitchers of his era ? No you wouldn't.He hung around for a long time and earned some respectible numbers he just didn't win enough.

Nolan Ryan's winning percentage: .526

Bert Blyleven's winning percentage: .534

Mike,
So if Bert had tacked on a 13-13 season at the end of his career, you'd say he belongs? 300-263 is so much better than 287-250? Look at his career, season by season, and you'll see exactly how little his lack of Cy Youngs meant.

Seriously, he has more strikeouts than Tom Seaver, Don Sutton, Gaylord Perry, Walter Johnson, Fergie Jenkins, and Bob Gibson. How can you objectively measure dominance except by ERA and strikeouts?

He gave up too many homeruns? True, he's seventh on the all-time list. But 5 of the 6 guys ahead of him on the list are in the Hall, including Warren Spahn, Fergie Jenkins, and Robin Roberts (who only has 186 wins, by the way).

In any case, it's only Boggs and Sandberg this year. Argh.

Booooored.

Therefore, onto the really important questions. Like what the heck does BatKitty #3 have to do to get included in the BatLogo? Is there like a rite of passage? A hazing ritual by BatKitties 1 & 2 involving obscene amounts of catnip[batnip]? Is she being punished for biting BatGirl's buttons? Really, shouldn't we be working toward the enfranchisement of all kitties?

On the bright side, Bert got 40.9% of the vote, which is better than he's ever done before.

I'm not saying 300-263 would make him in. I am saying 287-190 with 2 Cy Youngs and 6 all star games would. Yes Ryan has less wins, he also has 5000 strike outs and 8 no hitters! and do you really think Burt is a better pitcher then Bob Gibson or Tom Seaver because he has more strike outs ?

Don Sutton, Gaylord Perry, Phil Niekro don't belong either, but because they are in now every almost good enough has to make it ?

I measure dominance by Cy Youngs and all time great season or performances, Burt never had an all time great season or an unforgettable performance. He was a real good pitcher, just not great. How many times did Burt strike out more then 16 in game

Again if you only had one game to win Burt would not be the pitcher you would pick.

Mike, while it's true that I wouldn't pick Bert if I needed one game to win, but then again, I definately WOULD NOT pick Clemens. I'd pick Morris, Koufax, Gibson, Santana or Schilling. Does that mean they're Hall of Famers? Not necessarily.
Also, Carleton got run support in '72-Bert clearly never did.

-TBird41

At least spell his name right, OK? It's BERT.

"He pitched for 22 years and made 2 all star games and never won a Cy Young"

To say that Bert Blyleven doesn't deserve to make the Hall of Fame because he only went to 2 All Star games in 22 years is kinda like saying Johan Santana shouldn't have won the Cy Young award this year because he didn't get picked for the All Star game.

I enjoy the Sports Guy's writing, but despite all the time he spends yakking about the Red Sox, I think baseball is clearly his weakest subject of the three major American sports. And somehow it seems typical that he'd give Jack Morris props for "most Wins in the '80s," a cool 'stache, and a misogynistic quote about female sportswriters.

i'll bet you that if Johan has 10 to 15 more seasons like this year, even if they are a little below numbers wise, he will go to more then 2 all star games and will win atleast one more Cy Young.

I understand why Twins fans think Bert is HOF, but he really doesn't stack up.

"Robin Roberts (who only has 186 wins, by the way)"

Actually Robin won 286 and lost 245 and if you compare their numbers they are very close to each other with the biggest difference being Roberts had 6 straight seasons of 20+ wins where he put up awesome numbers with the highlight being 1952 when he won 28 and lost 7 with an .era of .259. Bert never had those kind of seasons, he never dominated that way, and thats why Roberts is in and Bert isn't

60 shutouts is pretty dominant.

"To say that Bert Blyleven doesn't deserve to make the Hall of Fame because he only went to 2 All Star games in 22 years is kinda like saying Johan Santana shouldn't have won the Cy Young award this year because he didn't get picked for the All Star game."
--------------

Agreed. I've seen some writers like Jayson Stark and Bill Simmons say that they couldn't vote for Bert as a HOF'er because they never remembered thinking about him as a "star" during his career. But since when is that the point of who does or doesn't get inducted into the Hall?

There are fair reasons why he could have been overlooked or taken for granted during his playing career that have nothing to do with how great he actually performed.

Bert spent nearly his whole career pitching in smaller markets, often with mediocre clubs that gave him poor run support. The closest he came to a glamour team was the '79 "We Are Familee" Pirates: when Bert was 12-5 with a 3.60 ERA in 237.1 IP (and 2-0, 1.42 ERA in 3 postseason games), but the big stars were Stargell, Parker, Madlock, Tekulve and Moreno. In fact, the only actual "All-Star" on that '79 World Series champion was Dave Parker. So what does that tell you?

Judging him by Cy Young voting results isn't really a just measure, either. In 1973, he was 20-17 with a 2.52 ERA (158 ERA+) in 325 IP. (Yes, 325 innings.) His ERA was .12 runs higher than Cy Young winner Jim Palmer, but Bert had the best adjusted ERA in the league. Bert had a better WHIP than Palmer, more strikeouts and a higher strikeout rate than Palmer. He had more complete games (25), more shutouts (a league-leading 9), and he took more starts and pitched more innings than Palmer did.

Why didn't Bert win the Cy Young, or even finish 2nd in the vote? Because Palmer was 22-9 with a 2.40 ERA for a glamourous Orioles team that won 97 games, and Bert was just a kid who was 20-17 with a 2.52 ERA for an 81-81, 3rd place team from Minnesota. But in a world where sportswriters were more sophisticated and took the time to look past the surface, it's not hard to see how that 1973 Cy Young could have been Bert's.

I could make a case for him winning the 1984 Cy Young when he was 19-7 with a 2.87 ERA (142 ERA+) in 245 IP for a 75-87 Indians team, as well. But to shorten this, I'll just ask: Is it just coincidence that the actual Cy Young winner was the closer for the dominant World Champion Tigers? In retrospect, is Willie Hernandez a greater pitcher than Bert Blyleven, because he has a Cy Young trophy and Bert does not?

I'd also like to point out that it's never been a requirement for candidates that they can match up with the very greatest of Hall of Famers to be inducted into Cooperstown. If it were otherwise, frankly, Kirby Puckett might have to be in the first batch of players weeded out. Kirby was quite a player and a joy to watch, but warn't no Willie Mays or Mickey Mantle--or even Ken Griffey Jr. in his prime. It's unfair to say Bert doesn't belong in the Hall because he wasn't Tom Seaver or Roger Clemens.

We don't have to prop him up against the weakest of Hall of Famers to make him look good, either. Who are his closest comparables?

According to Bill James' similarity scores:

1. Don Sutton
2. Gaylord Perry
3. Fergie Jenkins
4. Tommy John
5. Robin Roberts
6. Tom Seaver
7. Jim Kaat
8. Early Wynn
9. Phil Niekro
10. Steve Carlton

All but John and Kaat are in the Hall of Fame, and the company even includes a couple elite names. By Bill James' HOF Standards measure, Bert scores a solid 50.0, which marks him as a squarely average Hall of Fame pitcher. He belongs in the middle of that lofty company in Cooperstown. I hope he lives to see the day when the gatekeepers will finally realize it and welcome him in.

20-17 compared to 22-9 and you think he was over looked he lost 17 games 3 games over 500 thats not great. Thats the whole point He was good not great

Again you can say the 73 Twins were bad team but there have been Great pitchers on bad teams that won more. Lefty in 72 is the biggest example and that team won 59 games total and he won 27 of them, let me guess he got more run support ? well why did a terrible 59 win team play better for their ace but the 73 Twins couldn't do that for Bert or the 79 pirates or any other " no run support " teams he played for ?

I find it hard to believe that of Bert's 250 losses all of them were by a heart breaking one run.

And if you look at that list of 10 pitchers all most of them had a stretch where they dominated, for atleast 3 years. And Again I don't think Sutton, Perry or Niekro should be HOFers either.

I watched Kirby played he was an awesome player that could take over a game,for some guys it's not about the numbers, Bert did not dominate that way.

Face it. He was very good, not great.

"is Willie Hernandez a greater pitcher than Bert Blyleven, because he has a Cy Young trophy and Bert does not?"

No they were both good pitchers, not great but Hernandez had a career year, and Bert never had a career year. I mean is 19-7 with a 2.87 era considered a career year ? That's it ? That's the single best season Bert had ? He didn't even 20 games that year

"i'll bet you that if Johan has 10 to 15 more seasons like this year"
---------

Do you realize that if Johan actually does have 10-15 more seasons like this year, it would mark him as one of the literal few greatest pitchers ever to play the game, possibly THE greatest, and that such a level of dominance is not even a moderate standard of induction into the Hall of Fame?

Bert did have his fair share of brilliant seasons:

1973, 20-17, 2.52 ERA (152 ERA+), 258 K, 9 shutouts, 325 IP.
1974, 17-17, 2.66 ERA (142 ERA+), 249 K, 3 shutouts, 281 IP.
1977, 14-12, 2.72 ERA (151 ERA+), 182 K, 5 shutouts, 234.2 IP.
1984, 19-7, 2.87 ERA (142 ERA+), 170 K, 4 shutouts, 245 IP.
1989, 17-5, 2.73 ERA (140 ERA+), 131 K, 5 shutouts, 241 IP (at age 38).

Those are just his five peak seasons by adjusted ERA, spread evenly throughout his career. I think they'd stack up well against the peaks of most Hall of Fame pitchers, and he had more than another 15 years of very good performances to go along with that sample.

I wasn't even a Twins fan when he wore the uniform, so I'm not sentimental about getting another Twins old-timer into the HOF. I simply think it's an injustice that someone with his career credentials gets overlooked by the writers who vote on HOF inductions, mainly because he doesn't have the milestone 300 Wins.

Think about this: when Bert finished the 1981 season, age 30, to that point in his career he was 167-148 with a 2.74 ERA, and 159 complete games, in 3235.33 IP. These were his first 12 years, right up to his arm injury. If his mostly mediocre teams had just given him the support to get one more win per season in those years--let's say by turning a dozen of his complete game ND's or Losses into Wins--he'd be bumping against 300 Wins and a virtual certainty of HOF induction.

Wouldn't you figure that a guy who posted a 2.74 ERA with 159 complete games (and 41 shutouts) in his first dozen seasons should have deserved better than a .530 W/L pct. to that point in his career?

"20-17 compared to 22-9 and you think he was over looked he lost 17 games 3 games over 500 thats not great. Thats the whole point He was good not great"

Bert had a comparable Win total and ERA. He had the league's best adjusted ERA and was better than Palmer in terms of WHIP, strikeouts and strikeout rate, innings pitched--pretty much the things a pitcher can directly control. Bert truly had a great, dominant season, better than Jim Palmer. If you're going to overlook all that just because Palmer pitching for the East champion Orioles had a better W/L pct.... well, I guess that's how Bert has been screwed out of his deserved honors over the years.

"Lefty in 72 is the biggest example and that team won 59 games total and he won 27 of them, let me guess he got more run support ? well why did a terrible 59 win team play better for their ace but the 73 Twins couldn't do that for Bert or the 79 pirates or any other " no run support " teams he played for ?"

First of all, Bert won 20 games with a 2.52 ERA for the '73 Twins, so I have no idea why you're busting him for that performance. If his numbers that year don't impress you, I wonder why don't expect that Jim Palmer should have won more than 22 games with a far better team behind him.

Second, Carlton in '72 was 27-10 for a lame Phillies team... and I don't know whether his team tended to score more when he pitched, but I suppose that his 1.92 ERA and 30 complete games also had something to do with his W/L mark. Now, Bert never had a season like that one, but then Carlton never reached that peak again either. It's not like Lefty had those kinds of seasons falling out of his pockets whenever he took the mound; and, besides, a 27-10, 1.92 ERA season is not a standard of HOF induction.

As to why Bert didn't get more run support, are you suggesting that a pitcher has the power to will his lineup to score more runs for him, if he's a Hall of Famer, than the guys would for anyone else?

"I find it hard to believe that of Bert's 250 losses all of them were by a heart breaking one run."

The scores of his Losses in 1973 (via Retrosheet):
4-2, at Cal. 4 ER, 6 H, 1 BB, 4 K, 7 IP.
2-1, vs. Oak. 2 ER, 8 H, 0 BB, 8 K, 9 IP: CG.
3-2, vs. Cal. 3 ER, 9 H, 1 BB, 9 K, 9 IP: CG.
6-3, at NY. 2 ER, 8 H, 5 BB, 2 K, 6 IP.
5-1, vs. Bos. 3 ER, 8 H, 2 BB, 2 K, 4.1 IP.
6-2, at KC. 6 ER, 8 H, 1 BB, 5 K, 4.1 IP.
6-3, vs. Mil. 4 ER, 10 H, 0 BB, 6 K, 6.1 IP.
3-2, at Chi. 3 ER, 10 H, 2 BB, 10 K, 8 IP: CG.
5-0, at Bos. 5 ER, 9 H, 1 BB, 3 K, 5.2 IP.
6-2, at Oak. 5 ER, 6 H, 4 BB, 4 K, 7 IP.
2-1, vs. Bal. 2 ER, 8 H, 2 BB, 9 K, 9 IP: CG.
9-3, vs. Det. 4 ER, 11 H, 4 BB, 5 K, 6.2 IP.
2-1, at Bal. 2 ER, 10 H, 2 BB, 3 K, 8.1 IP.
3-2, vs. Mil. 3 ER, 9 H, 0 BB, 11 K, 7.2 IP.
10-7, vs. Chi. 5 ER, 12 H, 0 BB, 7 K, 6.1 IP.
4-3, at KC. 4 ER, 10 H, 1 BB, 4 K, 8 IP: CG.
3-0, at Cal. 3 ER, 6 H, 2 BB, 7 K, 8 IP: CG (last day of season).

So there are the 17 losses. Seven 1-run losses. 35 runs scored by the Twins in those losses, for an average of 2.06 rpg. It's not that Bert was always at his sharpest in those losses, but he was often sharp enough that a handful of those games could have been wins with a better team behind him. And I haven't even looked at his no-decisions that season.

"I mean is 19-7 with a 2.87 era considered a career year ? That's it ? That's the single best season Bert had ? He didn't even 20 games that year"

I think 1973 was probably his best year, but 1984 was up there. I don't see why you're talking about 19-7 with a 2.87 ERA in 245 IP like it happens to a handful of pitchers every year. It was a great season, particularly since he did it on a 6th place team. If you're knocking it because 19 Wins isn't quite 20, you're subscribing to the same mindset that argued against Johan until he actually reached that magic number this season.

Johan ended up with a 20-6 mark. Do you think that if he'd lost his last game and had a 19-7 record that his season would have been so much less?

"Again I don't think Sutton, Perry or Niekro should be HOFers either."
--------------

Sorry, this was just one more quote I want to address.

If that is part of your argument against Bert, then you're using a standard which simply does not exist in reality. Not only are those three pitchers in fact Hall of Famers, but they're not even on the borderline of the existing body.

Niekro's HOF Standards score is 52.0, where the average HOF is 50.0. He has 318 Wins, a 3.35 ERA (115 ERA+) and 3342 strikeouts in 5404.1 IP over 24 years (an average of 232.1 IP per 162-game season).

Sutton has a 58.0 HOF Standards score, ranked 18th amongst all players in the Hall. 324 Wins, 3.26 ERA (108 ERA+), 3574 K in 5282.1 IP over 23 years (234.1 IP per 162 game season).

Perry has a 57.0 HOF Standards score, 22nd in the Hall. 314 Wins, 3.11 ERA (117 ERA+), 3534 K in 5350.1 IP over 22 years (248 IP per 162-game season). And he won a Cy Young in each league: the only one before Clemens to do that, I believe.

Even if you could toss those guys out of Cooperstown, we'd be talking about stripping most members from the Hall of Fame then; and from now on, maybe a few guys in each decade could be seriously considered for induction. That's never been what the Hall of Fame is all about. Blyleven, Niekro, Sutton, and Perry are not Walter Johnson, and Kirby Puckett was never Willie or Mickey, but Cooperstown has always honored a broader legacy of the game than just the first & second string for the All-Time Nine.

Watching Kirby play you knew he was special, he won some MVPs and just knew he was a great player, Jack Morris gave that same kind of feeling. I never once got that kind of feeling watching Bert pitch.

There are certain benchmarks that you need to hit to be a sure thing for the hall. For pitchers its 300 wins in a career. When you don't hit that mark there are other things that you need to have done to show that greatness, you don't need them all but enough.

Cy Young Awards, multiple 20 win seasons, All Star appearences, 300 strike outs in a season, an All Time Great season, No Hitters, Perfect Games, etc

Bert didn't hit the benchmark, and he missed out on alot of the other things, and he just wasn't special. Iwon't keep boring you. I don't think he belongs and so do most of the Baseball writers, if he gets in it won't be the end of the world, he just isn't special enough to be in the HOF.

It's pretty clear no one's mind is going to be changed here. I am in awe of frightwig's knowledge and eloquence, and almost admire mike's persistence (wrongheaded persistence, but persistence nonetheless).

Mike doesn't think Bert was special enough. Some of us do. That's what makes this a great game, I guess. (Oh, and I, also, was not a Twins fan during Bert's heyday, so I don't think you can put this down entirely to homerism. In fact, I was an Orioles fan, so you can imagine the love I feel for all of the 1979 Pirates.)

So I will just point out (and then be done with it) that some might consider being #5 all-time in strikeouts to be a pretty significant benchmark. Sure seemed important, anyway, when Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson were doing it.

Wel, I really don't see a point in continuing here, because there's no point in trying to convince mike, who won't look past the win category (teams lose games, not just pitchers) or his feeling that he never thought Bert was "special."

Cy Youngs are about a season, All-Star games are about Yankee-ness (are you currently a Yankee, have you ever been a Yankee, are you paid like a Yankee, etc).
Word Smith said it best: "Whether your team wins or loses is not entirely in your hands (especially if your team happens to suck). Whether you get voted onto an All-Star team or get any Cy Young nods is also out of your control. Whether or not you make the bitches sit down, now that is completely within your control."

For the record it is not his win total that bothers me its his win total compared to his loss total. He lost too much to make up the difference for not having 300 wins. Sandy Koufax only has 160 wins and he is a HOFer

Here is a sample of a HOF plaque ...

EDWARD CHARLES FORD
"WHITEY"
NEW YORK A.L. 1950-1967
POSTED BEST WINNING PERCENTAGE (.690)
AMONG TWENTIETH CENTURY PITCHERS
WITH 200 OR MORE DECISIONS. HAD 236
VICTORIES AND 106 LOSSES. LIFETIME EARNED
RUN AVERAGE 2.74. PACED A.L. IN VICTORIES
AND WINNING PCT. THREE TIMES AND IN
EARNED-RUN AVERAGE AND SHUTOUTS
TWICE. WON CY YOUNG AWARD IN 1961. SET
WORLD SERIES STANDARDS FOR GAMES
PITCHED, 22; INNINGS, 146; WINS, 10, AND
STRIKEOUTS, 94, AND WITH 33 2/3 CONSECUTIVE
SCORELESS INNINGS.

What would Bert's plaque say

Threw a great curveball. Finished his career with 3700 strike outs. Won 287, would have been more but he didn't get any run support. Never won the Cy Young but that's because he wasn't a Yankee.Only pitched in 2 all star games, because he was from a small market.

See what I mean. When you make a summary of Bert's career it just isn't HOF.

"Watching Kirby play you knew he was special, he won some MVPs and just knew he was a great player."

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Mike, I agree that Kirby was a great player, but he never did win an AL MVP award.

As to whether one could tell just by watching him play that he was so special that he should be a lock for the Hall of Fame, I suggest that this subjective impression could be heavily influenced by personal charisma, style, and good ol' media hype.

Pete Rose and Ichiro are two others, great players both, whose reputations as "special" performers probably has exceeded their actual production in games--and I say that as a HUGE Ichiro fan, and someone who also counted Rose as one of my favorites as a kid. Some players are touched by sparkle dust and great PR. Unfortunately, Bert as a player wasn't so lucky.

Okay, since nobody else has, I'll take a crack at it:

RIK AALBERT BLYLEVEN
"BERT BE-HOME BLYLEVEN"
MINESOTA A.L. 1970-1976, 1985-1988
TEXAS A.L. 1976-1977
(Maybe they can't put him in the hall, listing all the teams he played for would fill the plaque!)...
POSTED A 2.89 EARNED RUN AVERAGE, 39 SHUTOUTS, 189 COMPLETE GAMES AND ONE NO-HITTER DURING THE 1970'S AFTER BEING NAMED ROOKIE PITCHER OF THE YEAR IN 1970. FINISHED WITH FIVE ONE-HITTERS AND CURRENTLY RANKS NINTH ON THE ALL-TIME SHUTOUTS LIST AND FIFTH ON THE ALL-TIME STRIKEOUTS LIST. PLASTERED POST-SEASON OPPONENTS EN ROUTE TO A 5-1 RECORD, A 2.47 EARNED RUN AVERAGE AND TWO WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Okay, we know he is not Cy Young, but it's a good enough plaque for the Hall, no?

I have been thinking about it all week, without any good conclusions. Writing his plaque has conviced me he's due for the Hall. The best argument was the winning percentage, but after seeing Randy Johnson pitch this year, I no longer give much weight to a pitcher's winning percentage. There is something to be said for a guy who is in the top ranks of both wins and losses. He was top ten in:
Cy Young 4 times,
ERA 10 times,
K/9IP 14 times,
Ks 15 times,
CGs 12 times,
Shutouts 10 times.

That's one hell of a career.

I think the argument boils down to whether or not you want an inclusive or exclusive Hall. If we want the Hall to be only the best of the best, then it should contain the top players from each position, and add only the greatest players of each generation. That is, since 1999, only Nolan Ryan and George Brett should have been inducted, with Fisk, Yount, Perez, Winfield, Puckett, Murray, Carter, Molitor, Boggs and Sandberg taking a seat.

(Not sure whether Ozzie Smith falls into that Hall or not.)

Of course, the other extreme is to have an incredibly inclusive Hall, where Goose, Rice, Dawson, Bert, Mattingly, Morris, John, Garvey, and others would make it -- better for people who visit, but not really the Hall of FAME mentality.

For me, I'd like to see the strict Hall, having maybe 35-40 of the best players. Then have a wing with great moments -- Mattingly highlights, etc. Not *in* the Hall, maybe like in a sidecar to the Hall. This sidecar would contain all the people your heart tells you belong in the Hall, but your head knows they don't (e.g., Mattingly)...this forges the perfect solution, and means the building itself is more inclusive, making it a prime must-see attraction. I mean, there are plenty of players who weren't ever the best of the best, but you got that feeling watching them -- that feeling that can't be quantified by stats. That Mighty Casey feeling. The sidecar is for them.

Eh, what do I know.... :)

YankeeFan