You know I am a big Torrii fan but the yearly crying time gets old. o poor me I don't get to work with my best friend. well, who does? Polads cheapness is the worst part of being a twins fan. the players left anual cry fest the second. get to know'em - again.

Mike&Jane-I disagree w/ your shots at Torii. He wants to win, and all he ever sees is players leaving. Yeah, they are his friends, but they are also what he sees as players who can help him achieve his goal of the winning the World Series. Wouldn't you be frustrated w/ Pohlad if you were in Torii's shoes? I know I would.
-TBird

Torii, don't you dare give up. I swear to god.

"I know it's expensive, but, you know, movies used to cost a dime, and now they're like 12 bucks. You've got to change with the times."

He has a great point there. *nudges Pohlad*

Yeah, if only we still had Dougie at first instead of Doctor Morneau. If only we still had AJ instead of that loser Mauer. If only we still had Ron Coomer instead of Rivas. If only we still had Guzman hitting into double plays. If only Torii still had Chad Allen over in left field. If only we still had Mike Lincoln instead of Johan.

All saracasm aside, you know what it would be nice if we still had? A veteran center fielder who would welcome new kids to the team and help them prosper for the sake of the club instead of whining about how much they all suck.

Sure, it would be great if the Twins would keep a few more of its 2004 squad together. Which is to say, Koskie. But thank heavens we're not "going out and adding quality free agents." That would mean paying millions too much for over-the-hill players, and every million that Terry Ryan wastes on "quality free agents" equals three Justin Morneaus he can't afford to keep. If Torii wants to know what it's like to play for a team that adds "quality free agents" instead of developing young talent, perhaps he would enjoy spending a week in a Mets uniform.

Honestly, I'm tired of everyone knocking Pohlad. At a 55 million payroll, every year he loses money on the team. Lots of money, like 15 million a year. So I suspect - like Torii points out - that if we want to retain more players or sign some big free agent names, we should all reach into our own pockets and pony up more for game tickets. If you don't want to pay any more than last well...do you honestly have something to say to Pohlad about it?

Sure...sign me Randy Johnson, but I'm not paying $56 a game to get into the stadium! How about you?

I don't think Ryan likes the annual offseason free agency market any more than the fans do, but he's doing the best he can with what's available to him. And he trusts his farm enough to develop players to fill in the gaps.

More than knock Pohlad, I'd rather knock some money off of these projected salaries. Romero for example, wasn't worth what he got last year. No way is he worth 1.5 million this year. Rivas -- even with his big toenails -- isn't worth 2.5 million. Kyle Lohse - 1.7 Million? for what? And how much did Joe Mays make last year for not even pitching an inning?

The money some of these guys want to play in insane!

I agree this "crying game" gets a little bit old. Atlanta "reloads" just about every year and keeps winning.

Who has got a better starting rotation that the Twins in the AL? Not the A's, not the BoSox, maybe the Yankees will at the end of the hot stove league, but I still like the Twins chances.

I think the problem with losing some of the front line guys from the last year is our depth with position players. Last year Cuddyer and Lew Ford were great fill-ins, but it looks like they'll be starters -- so, who backing up last year's back-ups? That's a little scary.

first of all, sorry for the lengthy post. but i gotta agree with torii on this one - although it's not about losing buddies in the clubhouse to me - it's about letting a nucleus of players leave that were on the verge of turning the corner in the playoffs for this coming season. i don't really understand why Pohlad (correct me if i'm wrong, but he IS a billionaire, isn't he?)can't just approve a payroll increase of 15-20 million for a season, picking up a QUALITY free agent or two, and at least take a shot at WINNING in the playoffs. Does he really want his franchise to win a championship? Most owners do - that's why ought to want to own a sports team. We're not going to win a title by subtracting quality and adding a Juan Castro or Jose Offerman. If it doesn't work, go back to 55 mil. But at least you can say you tried. We've got to stop being content with just being division champs. And that is where Torii is right. Say what you what about his unfulfilled potential with the bat - the guy is a gamer and will give you everything he's got. Those are the guys who win you championships, not stop-gap, fill-in journeyman nobodies. This run isn't going to last forever. Eventually the White Sox will figure it out and the Indians will mature and we'll actually have to work to win the division. I'm afraid the window with this era of Twins players is closing.

Hearing Torii say things like that concern me. He's the heart of our team, and if his own heart isn't in it, how do they expect anyone else to have any heart? It's sad really...
Torii, stick with it for us. And thanks for being nice to my Morneau. :)

arrscott:

you couldn't have been more on point. congrats on being the first poster in the history of the world to which i have nothing to add :) (well, nothing except this relatively short addition to tell you how right you are)... oh nevermind :)

YankeeFan

I must agree with branimal. The difference between Pohlad and -- say Steinbrenner, is that it doesn't really feel like Pohlad is all that interested in good baseball and putting a quality team on the field. And that's heartbreaking. And that's really all the fans are asking for. We try to understand the budget thing, but all we really want is a good effort in putting together a winning team.

It's always a drag to see guys you've grown to care about leave the team. But really, have the Twins lost even one player in the last few years who's of championship quality?

The comment above shows that pretty much every switch has been a big net positive in terms of talent. Mauer over AJ? Even Batgirl seems pretty okay with that one. Morneau over Doug M? Yeah, I think so. Whoever replaces Jacque Jones is likely to be an upgrade; JJ is a below-average offensive player for his position. You might even get more value out of Guzman's replacement.

I know you're bummed about losing Koskie. But this isn't a terrible move either: Koskie's probably at the end of his career peak, and he's not a star. The way that budget-limited teams stay competitive is by being resolutely unsentimental--and that means not overpaying for past performance. (Whether the Twins should be "budget-limited" with Monty Burns as their owner is a separate question.)

Now, I do think the Twins could stand to take some more risks. It would have been great to see them sign a guy like Nomar on a one-year make-good deal, the way the Marlins did with Ivan Rodriguez in 2003. In a world without Scott Boras, I'd love to see them take a flyer on Magglio Ordonez along the same lines. But the farm system is deep, they have guys to trade, and Ryan has shown himself both a good organizational steward and a savvy in-season trader.

Put it this way: as a Phillies fan, I'd probably send you Ed Wade and one of our better players to bring TR to Philadelphia...

Ouch, did Torii imply that Lew Ford has no heart? Are you gonna take that, Lew?

Torii, when movies cost a dime, baseball teams proabably cost under $100,000. Now movies are $9 (not $12), and the Twins cost $56 million. Your homework assignment: Which entity has inflated at a higher rate?

I'm not saying players shouldn't get what they're worth from their owners; but the way players are valued these days seems about as rational as real estate.

k-bro, the real difference between Pohlad and Steinbrenner is that Steinbrenner could probably drop a quarter billion and still run a profit. Of course the Twins make a real effort in putting a good team on the field -- it's how they've accomplished so much lately with so little.

Hey, we could be sitting in Oakland without Hudson and Mulder.

Having a winning team is awesome and i take a lot of pride in being a twins fan but it seems like we were so close and now we're taking at step back (especially in the infield, which, defensively, has always been something we could count on). That said, having back Bradke and Santana (who needs a nickname BTW)is something to be excited about.

"If Torii wants to know what it's like to play for a team that adds "quality free agents" instead of developing young talent, perhaps he would enjoy spending a week in a Mets uniform."

What a ridiculous comment.

How about spending a week in a Yankees uniform? Or a Red Sox uniform? Just because the Mets fail miserably at picking which free agents to add doesn't somehow mean it's better for a team not to add free agents.

This Twins team is one or two quality players away from the World Series. The unfortunate thing is we'll never be try to go out and get some free agents to get us over the top, instead choosing to rest our hopes on striking gold from within (and then letting those players go in a couple years). It's an absolutely horrible spot to be in for fans.

I don't blame Pohlad entirely. He's a good part of it, but the current system is also a good part of it.

We're two to three months into the baseball offseason, and I've yet to really care. We're two to three months away from the football offseason, and I've already started digging into all the information I can find. Unlike baseball, every football fan knows that their team has an honest shot of getting top-quality guys each offseason, and it's one of the main reasons that football is much more popular than baseball right now.

I guess I'm in the middle on this. On the one hand, I don't really have a problem with the players the Twins have let get away. When you actually look on a case-by-case basis, which deal would you really change? Do you really think this would be a better team with Hawkins, Guardado, A.J., Guzman, etc., at what we would have had to pay them?

But on the other hand, it seems to me the little extra mile that they don't go, due to the budget constraints, is what is making the difference now. No, we don't want to go out and sign some overpaid aging superstar, but that's not what "getting a quality free agent" has to mean. It means signing a Chili Davis or a Jack Morris or some other impact player that could be that last missing piece that means the difference between advancing in the playoffs or going home. That's what is just not going to happen as long as Pohlad has a set number in his mind and won't budge.

Oh, and I also agree it's not all Pohlad, it is the system. As long as some teams have virtually unlimited funds to spend they will artificially inflate salaries for everyone and continue to make the disparity between the haves and have-nots greater and greater.

Smitty

P.S. Torii's remarks don't bother me. People ask him questions and he answers them honestly based on his own thoughts and feelings. He's not there to think like management and he doesn't need to. As long as he keeps performing like he did in the postseason, that's all we can ask from him.

Honestly, I don't think Torii is "complaining", I see it more as "venting". Turnover is natural in sports these days, but the inablility for the Twins to maintain "key" players has to be frustrating for the handful of folks that get to hang around. I suspect that when spring rolls around, Torii and the rest will be ready to take a fourth straight division title.

On a completely unrelated note (and to brighten the mood a tad), ESPN.com Page 2 has their yearly recap of sex in sports (not as racy as it sounds). And a quote from Boo made the final cut:

"No one wants to be in my pants right now."
--Twins reliever Juan Rincon (who was, at the time, pantsless in the locker room) after surrendering four runs to the Yankees in the eighth inning in Game 4 of the ALDS.

Me 'n' my friend have been talking about Torii's comments to Jim Souhan and, while it's frustrating to see our guys go elsewhere, the center fielder's words mimic the feelings a lot of us have about the Twins. The beauty of this team, in addition to 3 straight division titles and a couple of interesting Octobers, is that the players seem to care for each other as much as we care for them. That doesn't happen often.

Baseball is a cruel, if moneyed, world. Players cut strings based on the perception of being able to find BOTH fame and fortune elsewhere -- Eddie, LaTroy, Corey, Guzy. Ownership cuts strings based on the perception that someone better is coming along -- AJ, Doug, Milton (as well as Pohlad's unwillingness to give the players mentioned above enough to keep them from looking elsewhere.)

D'you think Mets' fans have affection for the "quality free agents" that have come through their team? Ha! D'you think Cubs fans like their underachieving team as much as they like their quaint ballpark? HaHa! D'you think Bitch Sox fans love the chemistry and success that Carl Everett, Robbie Alomar and other mercenaries brought to their club? HaHaHa!

We're in a unique situation -- a team-on-a-budget that has known more than passing success during this millenium. Sure, I wish Carl would be willing to bankroll the players who have been instrumental to our team's success. (At least the ones *I* think he should bankroll!)

But the pain of Cordel's departure is another of those things that remind me how damn much I care about this team and its players. And that is cool.

Peace. Merry Christmas.

I respect Torii for saying what's on his mind, and not digging into the Bull Durham cliché bin for another non-specific useless gem of BS. But, it takes time (and opportunity) for young players to come into an established group of players and find their role - on the field and off. 15 Torii Hunters and 10 Johan Santanas would be ideal, but that's not how it works.

To win championships, you need a mix of stars and role players, and we have a pretty good mix, something TR and Gardy are always mindful of. Even our role players are gamers. And I don't think we should assume that just because some of the younger players didn't assert themselves last year, that they won't as their roles & responsibilities increase this year.

I also think it's unfair to say our players aren't gamers. Thanks to MLB.tv, I saw almost every game last year. The only guys I saw not busting their butt on every play were Guzman (who's gone) and Rivas (who's on his 9th life with the Twins).

I know it's tough for us to sit on the sidelines while all these big names move around (and go to our competition in the Central), but it's really true that there isn't much VALUE out there. The agents are using the large market teams to set the market high at virtually every position, and it benefits those teams to set the bar high because it prices us out of the market. Like everyone said, it's the system, and we'd be stupid to handcuff ourselves for the next 1-3 years because we wanna name drop.

If you're dying to root for a team that's willing to overpay for free agents, Detroit isn't too far east. Head over there. You won't win *anything* over there, mind you - not even the division - but you'll get your wish for big name free agents every off-season.

That's not who we are, and frankly, I don't know if I'd even WANT to win it that way. I'd rather prove it can be won *our* way. It can... and we're the ones who can do it.

I gotta go with Hunter on this one. Rock on TH!

I just want to remind everyone that Pohlad is one of the top 5 owners in MLB when it comes to personal wealth. If he is losing as much money as 15 million a season, why keep the team ?

Sell it to someone that will try and have it make money. He wants a new stadium, paid completly by tax payers. Hopefully the " C " word won't be brought up again, but I can't stand really rich people that own teams crying broke.

I wish I was as broke as Pohlad.

I agree with Torii all the way. He's right.

Torii is the most overpaid player on the team. He can say what he wants and not think about it, he's set for life. Maybe he should give a little of his check back to pay for keeping his buddy. Two thirds of the soul patrol really hamper any other big contracts with this team.

Like arrScott, I wish the Team Leader would express support for the young talent coming into the team instead of telling the world that he thinks they're inferior to the players who have gone. I'm excited to see the team with Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer in the lineup for a full year. I say these changes would represent upgrades. What's wrong with him?

I realize he's just politicking at the last minute to keep his buddy Jacque--but just say you hope the team keeps Jacque, man. It would be nice if the Twins would occasionally be in the market for a premium free agent, yes. The team would look fantastic with Adrian Beltre at 3rd base next spring. But to say that the guys on your team lack heart and are doomed to get bounced in the ALDS... that's messed up.

"Unlike baseball, every football fan knows that their team has an honest shot of getting top-quality guys each offseason, and it's one of the main reasons that football is much more popular than baseball right now."

Tell it to fans of the Bengals, Lions, AZ Cardinals, Saints, and Browns, perenniel beacons of hope & glory....

Don't worry, Torii, you'll be playing for another owner after contraction.

branimal...

http://www.bat-girl.com/archives/000352.html

although i'd like to propose an addition...

Johan "Unanimous" Santana

-aussie

Pohlad has been trying to sell the Twins for a decade now. In the simplest terms, MLB won't let him. The league has a veto over any team sales or moves, and MLB simply will not allow anyone to sell or move his team unless he has a new free ballpark in hand. If the Legislature passes a stadium bill this session, look for Pohlad to sell the team by 2006.

Oh, and I think I was too harsh on Torii. His comments were wrong - both on facts and in spirit - but they're nothing I haven't felt as a Twins fan myself. Even Team Leader should be allowed to vent. Once. In December. By March I'm sure Torii will have realized that Ford, Morneau, Mauer, and the gang are good kids with real heart, and it won't take too long to realize that lozing Guzie is textbook addition by subtraction. (Hey, Milwaukee, after letting Counsell go, are you sure you don't need a Rivas?) Plus Jacques-Sensei is back in the outfield. Hooray!

You Twins fans really make me laugh sometimes. First off, Players dont make personnel decision...Management does. Therefore the players get paid to play the game, not decide who their teammates should be next season. Secondly, Losing Mein, and AJ were great moves by the twins. Morneau is a stud and hell actually hit like a first baseball, and Mauer is much cheaper and will be better than AJ if hes healthy (and remember he wasnt healthy before they traded AJ).
All Twins fans shoulda been praying for Rivas and Guzman to be off the team next year. Both can't hit a lick, and have overrated defensive abilities. Cuddyer will out hit one of them easily, and why not try Barlett out there? He wouldnt hit too much worse than Guzman.
Im not ripping on the Twins, I respect their ability to pump out minor league talent a lot, but I am a Tribe fan with Larry Dolan, which puts us in the same boat. Therefore, losing players is inevitable, and keeping Koskie and Guzman woulda been mistakes even if you had the money. With Restovich, Ford, and Hunter to play the outfield..why even resign Jacque Jones?? His hitting for a corner outfielder is below average and he is now overpaid. Be happy it was only a one year contract

Mauer WAS healthy..sorry for the mistype