Obviously, Tom doesn't know Portland (or the typical "swing vote" sports fan) all that well.

Carl who?

I wonder how revenue from attendance compares this year with other years. The Twins definitely made a conscious decision over the last couple years to pump up revenue at the expense of filling the lower pavillion with bodies, and it's probably working for them. But with fewer promotions that let me get a decent seat at a price that fits my small budget, I'm less likely to catch a lot of games.

I hate to beat a dead horse here but a big detriment to our family attending more games is the Metrodome. Given the dearth of nice sunny days here in Minnesota, I find it extremely hard to go to a game when it's nice out.

If we had an outdoor stadium, going to a Twins games would be considered a more viable option when the family is looking to do something on a nice summer night.

I'm with you freealonzo!
If the Twins would eventually get an outside staduim I would see my way to buying season outfield seats. I would go to all the games to eat a hotdog, drink a beer and soak up some great baseball and the beautiful Minnesota summer!
On the Carl Pohlad issue, what does he really care about the team? sell the team, get out of town and crawl back into the cave that you came from!

Well pfft on Powers!!! Is he there day in an day out??
Maybe he's upset because Carl may not want to build a new stadium in St.Paul - no offense to anyone east of the Mississippi.
I'm a season ticket holder - and yup the Dome stinks - but I suck it up and live with.
I'm with you Batgirl - cannot ever forgive Carl-Bud and all the other yahoos that tried to take our beloved Twins away -

Any city(s) that embraced Vic Power and Mudcat Grant feel in the 1960's deserves to keep its big league baseball team.

The Twins in Portland?

As a Minnesota Native but now a Portland Resident, el diablo would be mightily torn if such a scenario transpired.

el diablo is confuse.

Actually, I kinda agree with Mr. Powers. The sad turnout last week is just the latest example of underwhelming fan support.

Yes, the Dome is a dump. But name another ballpark where you could get the whole family in for less than 50 bucks (heck, less than 100). The team may not be world champion-caliber, but they are very competitive and generally fun to watch.

I honestly think the poor attendance is almost a self-fullfilling prophecy. People have heard for so long what a terrible place the Dome is and how the twins are on the virge of extinction, and how Pohlad is an evil mizer and Bud-ball is not what it used to be....etc...etc. Hear enough of that and you just don't want to go.

What's the solution? Other than a nice new ballpark? I suggest a grass-roots fan initiative. Get your friends and neighbors to join you a couple times a year. Make it a habit to see a game every month.

eldiablo, as a Twins fan living in North Carolina I fully understand your confusion. That whole scenario was a trying and strange time. I mean, the Twins were coming close to me! But then, they wouldn't be the Twins that I knew and loved any longer.

Thankfully the good folks of the Triad saw through the ruse, said "thanks but get lost", and relieved me of much potential angst.

Reusse actually beat Tom Powers to the punch last week; he called the fan support "pathetic."

I agree that the attendance is low for a team in contention which has won the division the last two seasons. However...

All winter, the press harped on Terry Ryan for letting so many key players go. We heard the Twins were cheap, they were rebuilding with unproven players. Limiting the payroll at $53m will ensure they have no real chance at the World Series. Reusse predicted the team would win 79 games in a weak division. We hear that just about everyone on the team really isn't that good. Even within the past couple weeks, Reusse ripped Terry Ryan again for leaving so many roster holes unfilled before the season began, for spending his budget on the wrong players.

For the past couple months, we've seen a lot of inept offense on the TV. They keep talking about missing Shannon Stewart, but the middle of the order has been punchless. What's being done? Oh, that Morneau kid? Keep your shirts on, folks. He can't handle off-speed pitches. Club management itself will tell us that.

In head-to-head matchups with our closest rival in the division, we've lost 7 of 10 while being outscored 67-37. At home, the local fans have seen our Twins lose 6 of 7 to those Bitch Sox.

We look at the rest of the schedule so far, and we've seen plenty of your Detroits and Kansas Cities, your Torontos and Tampa Bays. We haven't had a visit from Oakland, Texas, Boston, or the Yankees. The only AL contender from outside the division to visit the dome so far was the Angels, who dropped in for a weekend at the end of April.

Tell me, what is it that should compel the casual fan to go see the Twins, because this is a *must-see* baseball team playing important games? The reporters don't seem to think so much of the club. Why should the fans?

Every time Dick & Bert can find the excuse, they'll tell us about how the Twins need a new ballpark, how wonderful even Horrid Miller Park is compared to the Metrodome (which is a lie, but that's what they say). The dome is so *terrible!* Baseball just isn't the same without blue skies and freshly cut grass!

And every time the Twins try a new ploy to get a new ballpark, there seems to be an unsavory underbelly of the scheme that comes to light, eventually. Really, how should the fans in St. Paul feel about the Twins playing our city off Mpls, just so they might get a better deal on a project in Hennepin County? The Twins might have been given a sweet park in St. Paul; but when pressed for a commitment, Jerry Bell suddenly had cold feet. Uh-huh. Yeah, we see. Later, playa.

I could go on about how shabby the Twins treated me when I had season tickets in 2002, but suffice to say that there are plenty of reasons why people might be staying away from the Metrodome this summer. I saw 22 games in person in 2002, about 6 last year. So far this year, I've been to the dome once--and it's because my parents came to visit, and my Dad paid. (Carl, in case you're interested, my Dad says, "They really hit you over the head with the advertising here.")

When a contending team, defending two division titles, is one of the few clubs in MLB to see a decline in attendance this season (down 5%), you gotta wonder what they're doing wrong. Don't blame the customers. Management, take a look in the mirror.

Perhaps Mr. Powers is unaware that Portland has the second-lowest per-game attendance of any U.S. triple-A club. Through June, the Beavers are averaging just 3,592 fans per game, barely a school bus ahead of Colorado Springs' 3,538 average. Portland is drawing fewer fans per game than 12 double-A teams and 20 single-A squads. Why talk about moving the Twins to Portland, Oregon, and not, say, Spokane, Washington, (pop. 196,000) which averages 4,845 fans each time the single-A Indians take the field?

Perhaps Mr. Powers simly accepts without question MLB's preposterous claim that Portland is just as good a place to move the Ruppert Expos as Washington, DC. The three suburban DC minor-league teams together average 10,474 fans per game, more than any triple-A team, but we're supposed to believe Selig's claim that Portland can support a pro team with one-third as many fans. For crying out loud, DC has a double-A team and a single-A team that each draw 500 more fans per game than Portland's triple-A squad. I'm not fooled by Selig's pretense about Portland's mig-league suitability, but apparently Mr. Powers is.

I'm not sure which is more ridiculous - claiming that the Twin Cities cannot support a big-league team, or claiming that Portland can. On the scale of ridiculosity, it's like comparing infinity to infinity plus one.

Just a thunk, but given that some of the biggest draws (BoSox, Yankees, Oakland) are yet to come, isn't it possible, we might be about a push against last year? I assume that 5% decline is compared against this point last year, when we'd already seen the Yanks at home 4 times and boston 3. If I remember right, the draw was much higher at those games. We're at a million fans now, give or take, and if they drew 8,000-9,000 more fans per night for seven nights than this year's admittedly pathetic 20,000 average (very reasonable, though I can't back it up), there's an extra 48,000 to 56,000 - and there's your 5%.

I just wish the Yanks were a weekend series this year...

I read the Tom Powers article today, and it pissed me off too (more so than calling Evanescene "metal"). What's with the negativity? Why be such a hater? I bet he's a Yankees fan...
Anyway, I think the existence of Team Batgirl (among other teams/blogs) is proof that there are still die-hards out there.
And the Marlins won a World Series but I bet we'll have better attendance than they do this year.

First off, I agree with everyone who said that Portland can't support a team. That Portland is even being mentioned is ludicrous.

Second, I completely agree with Batgirl, Wonder Woman, and the others who put blame squarely on Carl Pohlad. His eagerness to take a $150 mil check to contract the Twins shook all of us to the core, and there are many who will punish Pohlad by not attending Twins games (my father being one such person). But where does our warranted hatred of Carl and Bud get us? Though it disappointed me greatly, I still thought the article had the ring of truth to it. I don't want to believe anything that Tom Powers said, but I can't deny that people don't care about the Twins until September. And that makes me more a little ashamed. Without public financing, this stadium will not be built, and the Twins will eventually leave Minnesota. I love the Twins with every square inch of my body and soul, and it hurts me that others don't feel the same way. I've always looked at my sometimes obsessive relationship with the Twins as a marriage. It won't always be great, but we're in this thing for the good times and the bad, and we have to do whatever we can to work through the bad. I travel a lot for work, so I can't go to as many games as I want to, but every night I'm in Minneapolis and there's a game, I go. Seriously. I don't care if the Twins are in first or last place. I don't love the Metrodome, but I love the teams that play there, so I don't even think of not going. They're a part of my life, even if a little part of me dies every time I see Guzman swing (I love all my Twins, but seriously, that HAS to be the worst swing in baseball. it's not even close). If public financing is the only way to keep the Twins in Minnesota, then I'll send a check and stop going out on weekends. I think people and the media are spending too much time on what's not working well, that they're not focusing on potential solutions. Given the choice between dipping into my savings and having my heart broken again (i'm talking to you, Norm Green), just tell me where to send the check. If I have to swallow my pride and submit to Carl's will, you're damn right I'll do it.

One thing we can all agree on is that Carl Pohlad is the worst owner in professional sports. He's the wealthiest man in Minnesota (that's according to Forbes magazine, and his $2 billion personal fortune is good enough for 88th overall in the country). Say what you will about Steinbrenner, but the man loves his team, and pumps ridiculous sums of money to make it as good as possible. We get jealous because we "can't" do it (read: Carl doesn't care), but he does everything within the rules, and wants to win more than anything. I have to admire that. Of course Pohlad SHOULD privately fund the stadium, but we have to face facts that our situation is what it is, and then make the best of it. Carl isn't going to change. And if we don't, we'll lose the Twins.

I think he's about 60% right. This is football/hockey country. Even the Wolves have trouble filling out Target Center and look at their record of making the playoffs.

A lot of people are fair-weather fans, I saw it during the 2003 playoffs where I witnessed both Inglorious Debacles (i.e. ALDS home games) even though I had to drive 250 miles to get there and saw people leaving their seats during BOTH games in the 8th innings and even a few in the 7th!

I'm not saying the Twins should leave, or that we don't "deserve" to have a MLB franchise, but the kind of people who post comments at Batgirl, are not the kind of people this article is speaking about.

Mimiru

PS: If the St. Paul Saints WERE the top team in town, well then I would love beating all their fans over the head with the knowledge that the FM Redhawks are BETTER! HAHAHA! WHOO!

Ms. Mimiru, you're absolutely right. The BatCommunity is most definitely not the problem. It's the bandwagoning "others" that disturb me so greatly. Ahh, what to do, what to do....

Oh, and go River Bats!

When is Mimiru inviting the Bat-gang over for drinks on the roof of the Hotel Donaldson?

Twins in Portland or no, the ability of Portland to support a team should not be judged by the attendance of the AAA Beavers.

As a Portland resident, el diablo is very aware of the Beavers woes and the attendance is due to a number of factors:

1. The agreement to remodel and restore the historic stadium was wrought with bad deals with the city, weird agreements on the food and beverage revenues, and ultimately ridiculously mis-managed by the team owning company.

2. Once the news came out about how the deal for the stadium was such a mess, it left a very bad taste in the sporting public. People got really angry over the whole deal thinking that someone got a special deal and the city somehow favored someone. Keep in mind this is the same town that was ready to run the Blazers out of town for being a bunch of criminals. Portland fans are very similar to MN fans in that they want upstanding citizen athletes who also happen to kick sporting ass. The city government's biggest mistake was hiring a sports management team that had no idea how to run the team.

3. The San Diego Padres are the parent club and for the past three seasons, have been at the top or near the top of number of transactions per season between their major league club and the AAA club. As a result, there's no way to really get a team identity and no players to market around or generate fan interest. With the possible exception of Sean Burroughs--who's now with the Pads--there's no Chairman Mauer in sight.

Finally, keep in mind that AAA is minor league. Major League Baseball is just that--MAJOR LEAGUE. A whole different ballgame and, as such, attracts a different crowd of fans, sponsors, company suites, etc. Whether or not the Twins move anywhere, I believe that Portland can support a Major League Team.

Whether or not Butt Selig actually gets off his ass and figures out that he should never be a comissioner of anything ever again and makes a decision about where the Montreal Expos will ever play is also a whole other debate. But could a team succeed in Portland? Most definitely.

"I think he's about 60% right. This is football/hockey country. Even the Wolves have trouble filling out Target Center and look at their record of making the playoffs."

Is it really football/hockey country? Before a kid named Moss came along, the Vikings couldn't even sell out home games. They were blacking out games on TV. Before the nice new arena came along, the state lost its NHL hockey team, like we almost lost our baseball team. I don't remember the Met Center being packed with rabid hockey fans in those final years. If the Twins had a new stadium like the Wild have, or a marquee player like the Vikings have, it's reasonable to believe they'd see a major uptick in attendance. Alas, they have neither, yet (Before long, Mauer could fill the bill).

I've always had an irrational hope against hope that Carl realizes the way to restoring the family name and getting into a lot of Minnesotans' prayers is through "Pohlad Field." A lot of negative Karma would be eliminated through that.

Maybe he could name it "Eloise Field" after his wife. I've read over and over what a fan he is of the game. I dream that he's got it in his will, or that he's waiting for the perfect opportunity to spring the plan.

Dear RonDavis and Andre,

It's actually the HoDo now, it says so on their coasters (one of which I stole the last time I was there). Unfortunately I was too *ahem* "out of it" to navigate the stairs and get to the roof, but what's a college student to do?

To back up my football reference, drive around Minnesota during the fall and check out the state-wide interest in High School football. I wasn't talking as much about NFL.

As for Hockey I always thought that was something the owner did despite a good deal of team support from the fans. I could be wrong since I find hockey about as boring as some people find baseball boring and never paid a whole lot of attention to the hockey scene.

Pontificatingly yours,
Mimiru

None of Portland's excuses for its low attendance amount to much.

Sure, it's the minor leagues, not the major leagues. But Portland still comes in a school bus ahead of dead last in attendance among all U.S. triple-A squads. Several triple-A teams (Sacramento, Memphis, Louisville) manage to draw big-league crowds. The Beavers have poor attendance even by single-A standards. You've gotta go to short-season or rookie ball to find leagues where Portland's attendance would match or exceed league averages.

Sure, being part of the Padres organization has meant lots of transactions. But it's also meant some very good young talent using Portland as a launching pad for the bigs. And at least half of all triple-A teams face exactly the same issues of high turnover the Beavers face - and most of them draw many, many more fans than Portland.

The point - a good one I had not seen made before - that Portland fans hold team and political management against the ballclub is exactly why cynics like Mr. Powers believe Minnesota is a bad baseball community. It seems some Minnesota fans still hold a grudge because the Twins' billionaire owner spent the entire 1990s threatening to move or kill the team while purging it of any and all talent.

Anyway, most successful baseball relocations/expansions have been to cities with good minor-league attendance; cities with poor minor-league attendance have generally suffered poor big-league attendance too. The Twin Cities supported two triple-A teams, each playing in a stadium seating more than 12,000 fans, before the Twins moved to town, and since then the Twins have usually had above-average big-league attendance. Beavers attendance demonstrates Portland's suitability to host a single-A club, not a big-league team. The real question is why Mr. Powers buys "Tricky Bud" Selig's counterfactual claims to the contrary.

Having moved to MN from Philadelphia, home of some of the more ridiculously rabid fans on earth, and having grown up a Red Sox fan, I can honestly say that, in general, sports fans in Minnesota are about as fair-weather as they come. Oh, sure, they fill the dome for Vikes games, when the Vikings are winning. And boy do they love the Wild, at least until the new-ness wears off and the Wild fail to make the play-offs for a few years. Another member of the Bat-gang made the comment that it is not the people who read or post to this site who are the problem, and that is spot on. I'm not sure that there's a solution, however. If even casual fans can't find their way to the Dome (and believe me, I'm no great fan of the Dome -- get some decent food there, please) a few times a season to see a team that is fun to watch and vying for first place in the division, then perhaps Minnesota doesn't deserve a major league team. The Vet in Philly was worse than the Dome, and when I lived there the team was perennially in the cellar, yet the Phillies drew more than the Twins do now. A new stadium would be great, but ultimately will not solve the problem of people just not giving a s*%t.

I lived in Seattle in the early '90s and was told-- relentlessly -- that it was a football town that would never support baseball. There were constant rumors/threats that the Mariners were leaving. Those teams were not perennial division winners, but there were plenty of reasons to go watch them play. (My two favorites: Ken Griffey Junior and Randy Johnson. Love Edgar, but he was better to watch once he stopped playing third.)

Then came a convergence of positive change: new ownership, the best new stadium I've seen, and about fifty million Japanese fans.

Now Seattle is being mentioned as one of the best baseball towns in the country.

It seems to me that the Mariners' problems were not solved by flogging fans into going to the Kingdome (shudder) more. The state voted (sort of--that's a long story) to get behind the new stadium. The management made interesting personnel moves, including letting favorite players leave and signing an international superstar. Oh, yeah, and NEW OWNERSHIP.

Clearly just building a park isn't going to entirely solve attendence problems. (See: Miller Park.) Stinky baseball in a bad new park won't help. But I don't think the team would play stinky baseball. I think revenues would go up immensely (although I do worry that this would partly happen through really expensive new tickets that would lock out some loyal fans). And I also think that with that kind of revenue and attendence, the Twins still wouldn't be the Yankees. They'd be the Mariners, midwest: still not signing or keeping loads of marquee players, but able to A) compete almost every year, and B) give lots of fans a great day at the park.

(Oh, yeah, and this is all brought to you by NEW OWNERSHIP. Although I did really like the "Eloise Field" idea. I might be able to get over it and forgive the old guy if he did something that sweet.)

Dear Mr. arrScott-

We agree to disagree.

Respectfully,

-el diablo

Wow. Lots of good points being made. Let me toss in my 2 cents on some of them.

I think it's ridiculous to think Portland could support a MLB team. El Diablo's claims that the Baever's poor attendance is the result of poor city oversight of stadium renovation seems like wishful thinking to me. When I lived in PDX in the early 90's the Beavers were the Twins AAA team and were not a huge draw. In fact they left town right after I did, ending up in Salt Lake City. PDX couldn't support the Beavers prior to the botched renovation and they still can't support them. I think the league is yanking PDX's chain so that they can try and extort stadium's out of resistant communities. Anyone doubting this is the aim of MLB should read some very interesting articles about Mr. Selig and his view of the game from the wshington post(you may need to register but it's worth it):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7597-2004Jun26.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10599-2004Jun27.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13386-2004Jun28.html

It's akin to the crazy ploy to move the Twins to NC. It was a transparent extortion ploy. MLB never seriously entertained having a team in NC. It never would have worked. Unfortunately for Pohlad and Selig both communities were hip to their shenanigans. Threatening to move the team to PDX is the same thing. For whatever reason all Selig wants to do is build new stadiums. He will do whatver he can to try and compel the Twin Cities to do this. This bothers me. Now I want a new stadium as badly as anyone. I hate the metrodome and it is a major barrier to not attending games. But I don't like having a gun put to my head by thuggish billionaires (or in Selig's case thousandaires).

And as far as Tom Powers goes, he can get bent. What a load of self serving crap. To gloss over the damage that the current "commisioner" has done to baseball and it's fans, to ignore the lasting damage done by the recent work stoppages, to minimize the true hurt inflicted on Twins fans over the last 10+ years by Pohlad et al is to put on a pair of blinders so huge and all encompassing that Powers should be embarassed to call himslef a journalist. I think the parallels to the Mariners situation are solid and I think a achange of ownership would have a positive impact on Twins fandom. Of course Seattle already had a team stolen from them once (by some guy named Bud Selig - coincidence?)

Senor Diablo,

I am sure we agree about many things, including a high regard for the fine city of Portland - indeed for the whole state of Oregon. It's like Minnesota, but warmer, with mountains, and a few inches to the left. Plus the newspaper in Bend has a terrific editorial writer who would never write anything as foolish as Mr. Powers in St. Paul.

I also grew up in Seattle, and well remember all the threats to leave for Tampa Bay if 2 million fans didn't come out, how it wasn't "a baseball town," etc.

New ownership was definitely crucial; but the fan support was there even before Safeco Field opened.

The key, after new ownership came in, was that the club had a group of young, genuine STARS whom people clamored to see. Griffey, Randy Johnson, Edgar, Tino, later A-Rod... mixed in with some endearing characters like Little Joey Cora, Jay Buhner, and Chris Bosio. They also hired a manager who inspired people, and brought a whole new attitude to the culture surrounding the team. When the team rallied from 13 games back in August to win the West in '95, then beat the Yankees in the ALDS, Seattle became "a baseball town" as crazy for its team as any city in the country. By 1997, when the M's still played in the Kingdome, the club drew 3 million.

If the Twins had managed to take down the Yankees in last year's ALDS, I suppose more of the Twin Cities would be Twins-mad right now, too.

The Twins have a pretty good team made up of several pretty good, likeable players. But none of them are going to challenge for MVP honors this season. Nobody is leading this team to play a truly inspired brand of baseball this season (or for most of last season). Our only All-Star is the new closer.

As promising as Chairman Mauer looks, he's only been playing since the start of June--and just started to really heat up at the end of the month. (On June 27, he was hitting .254/.342/.460.) Much of what impresses me about him is rather subtle. Most of his best games as a hitter have been in losing causes, or blowouts when his contributions don't stand out. His return hasn't sparked the team to great heights: the Twins are just 19-16 since June 3.

Who is telling the team and its fans, "Hop on my back, I'll take you to the mountaintop"? Who has captured the imaginations of the casual fans? Who are the true MVP candidates and marquee stars? What are their signature moments?

Those are things that sell tickets. You gotta make people feel like they *have* to go to the ballpark, because if they're not part of the excitement then they're just missing out.

The only thing that I love more than baseball is hockey. Minnesota is absolutely the State of Hockey. Go Bulldogs!!!

Fortunately for me, there is an almost seamless transition between baseball season and hockey season.

el diablo would like to clarify and expand. First off, thanks for the kind words from Mr. arrScott.

Secondly, to continue along with Mr. Tizzod's comments, as a MN native myself, el diablo also hates that PDX--and other cities--are being used to help owners get stadiums built. MLB and Selig are shopping the Expos around in search of the best deal for all the other owners and, it appears, with very little regard for the health of the Expos or the destination city. Come on, you all may think PDX is a stretch, but Monterrey, Mexico? Who are they kidding? el diablo doesn't even know where Monterrey is and his name is in Spanish.

And while el diablo may admit that MLB in PDX would be a stretch, el diablo is a baseball fan. As a baseball fan, el diablo wants baseball here. el diablo thinks MLB would succeed in this city but it would be a completely different event for this town.

Portland is a growing city, with only one other major sports team competing for the entertainment dollar in town; and I think a rivalry between a Portland and Seattle club would be tremendous for baseball in the Northwest, as well as the game as a whole. There are some good reasons to put a MLB team there, and I think it would work. I just don't want Portland's team to be the Twins.

Okay, now I'm going to piss lots of people off because I'm going to generalize, but I think the lack of rabid fan support is indicative of upper mid-west culture.

A kind of "Now let's not get too excited..." mentality and "Well it IS just a game..." makes Minnesota fans more likely to just shrug and do other things when whatever team isn't doing that well. It's also related to the idea of MN fans giving officials the benefit of the doubt instead of just being a rabid fan.

The culture of the people that live in this area is just "cold." I don't mean nasty I just mean reserved. Not very demonstrative in public, valuing personal space. Contrast that to areas that have more passionate cultures and you'll see what I mean.

Also, Minnesotans are (generally) cheapskates.

At the new stadium, they should keep a good section of the upper deck cheap (less than a movie), so they could more easily sell out, so people feel more pressure to get tickets soon, which leads to more selling of tickets. Boston sells out its stadium due to similar (felt) shortness of tickets, but without the low prices.